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Subject: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:36 am
This dude is not top ten in the EAST OF ALL-TIME????? I think some heads on here are getting confused because they heard "Baby"...LMAO...I don't care how many duds he's released he's a legend and he's easily top 10 on the east coast of all-time....move GZA and Ghost to the side and let the rightful LEGEND step up to the plate and take his space...lol...get fully aquainted with this dude's career people...REAL TALK!
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:39 am
GZA and Ghost do deserve to be on the list, but it does seem the forum may need a refresher course on LL.
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:40 am
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
GZA and Ghost do deserve to be on the list, but it does seem the forum may need a refresher course on LL.
co-sign!!!!!!
Laced With Slang Barack O-Donna
Posts : 9848 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 36 Location : Detroit
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:50 am
T. Myers wrote:
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
GZA and Ghost do deserve to be on the list, but it does seem the forum may need a refresher course on LL.
co-sign!!!!!!
co-co-sign
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:57 am
They need more than a damn refresher course SRP, they need a hip-hop history lesson not too include this guy man
I mean when you've done as much as Cool J has for hip-hop then you begin to see how easily he beats both Ghost and GZA man, and lyrically I honestly believe in HIS PRIME he was better than both of them and let's not even go to a battle man..lol, cause then I believe he's straight killing them
As a group Wu-Tang is in there but if we are going on solo works then Cool J is in before both of those guys easily IMO! and I'd be willing to bet that if you asked both of them they would say the same thing...I mean they know Cool's COMPLETE history man....
Last edited by D.Powell on Wed 12 Aug 2009, 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
T. Myers One Of A Kind
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 11:02 am
If you are basing it on solos, it's not as easy as you'd like to think. take the best 3 solos from each mc, and it would be closer than you would want it to. I think you are letting your emotion and connection to LL to factor in your decision. All that being said, LL is a top 10 artist from the east. Hell, LL is a top 10 artist of all time for any region.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 11:07 am
Agreed Terry, this isn't about emotion for me, this is about a clearly deserving emcee being omitted..
As much as I think Biggie belongs on there as well I can see the dispute about him not having enough work as being a factor in him not being on there but for Cool J there really is no excuse IMO...I know he has released some duds but every artist has done that in a long career, Cool J has released more than enough dopeness to be included on any list IMO
If a LEGEND like Scarface can see this then I'm not sure why some on here are missing it!
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 4:34 pm
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
T. Myers One Of A Kind
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 4:43 pm
KJ Styles wrote:
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
KJ, I don't mean for this to sound like i'm calling you or Kev out, but this is the double standard i'm speaking of. LL gets penalized for making wack records, but Biggie gets a pass because he never had the opportunity to make a wack record. You nor I have any idea the path Biggie's career would have taken. If you are only going to base Biggie's inclusion on two albums, you should only base LL's inclusion based on his first two albums, right?
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 5:19 pm
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
KJ, I don't mean for this to sound like i'm calling you or Kev out, but this is the double standard i'm speaking of. LL gets penalized for making wack records, but Biggie gets a pass because he never had the opportunity to make a wack record. You nor I have any idea the path Biggie's career would have taken. If you are only going to base Biggie's inclusion on two albums, you should only base LL's inclusion based on his first two albums, right?
Well Biggie's albums can compete with LL's best IMO. We can speculate all day about what path Biggie's career would have taken. But Biggie was the undisputed leader when it came to bringing the spotlight of hip-hop BACK to the East Coast when the game was being dominated by the West. That combined with the two classic albums he made, and his influence/impact makes him one of the best MC's that ever did it. That logic you came up with is ridiculous Terry, because Biggie never had the opportunity to release more material and that's not his fault.
My other issue with LL is that he calls himself the greatest rapper of all time and he CLEARLY isn't. Many would say that he LOST his battle against Canibus, and that Canibus did more damage to his own career than LL did, mainly because of a piss-poor debut album. I have a lot of respect for LL, and had he made the Top 10 I wouldn't have been upset with it, but for me he's Top 15-20 in the East Coast.
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 5:22 pm
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
KJ, I don't mean for this to sound like i'm calling you or Kev out, but this is the double standard i'm speaking of. LL gets penalized for making wack records, but Biggie gets a pass because he never had the opportunity to make a wack record. You nor I have any idea the path Biggie's career would have taken. If you are only going to base Biggie's inclusion on two albums, you should only base LL's inclusion based on his first two albums, right?
Well Biggie's albums can compete with LL's best IMO. We can speculate all day about what path Biggie's career would have taken. But Biggie was the undisputed leader when it came to bringing the spotlight of hip-hop BACK to the East Coast when the game was being dominated by the West. That combined with the two classic albums he made, and his influence/impact makes him one of the best MC's that ever did it. That logic you came up with is ridiculous Terry, because Biggie never had the opportunity to release more material and that's not his fault.
My other issue with LL is that he calls himself the greatest rapper of all time and he CLEARLY isn't. Many would say that he LOST his battle against Canibus, and that Canibus did more damage to his own career than LL did, mainly because of a piss-poor debut album. I have a lot of respect for LL, and had he made the Top 10 I wouldn't have been upset with it, but for me he's Top 15-20 in the East Coast.
KJ, is it safe to assume that most people would have a different opinion of LL if they were only basing their opinion on Radio and B.A.D.? My gripe isn't with the dopeness of Biggie's albums. My grip is with the quantity. There simply isn't enough material to put him ahead of people who do have the quantity and quality.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 5:40 pm
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
KJ, I don't mean for this to sound like i'm calling you or Kev out, but this is the double standard i'm speaking of. LL gets penalized for making wack records, but Biggie gets a pass because he never had the opportunity to make a wack record. You nor I have any idea the path Biggie's career would have taken. If you are only going to base Biggie's inclusion on two albums, you should only base LL's inclusion based on his first two albums, right?
Well Biggie's albums can compete with LL's best IMO. We can speculate all day about what path Biggie's career would have taken. But Biggie was the undisputed leader when it came to bringing the spotlight of hip-hop BACK to the East Coast when the game was being dominated by the West. That combined with the two classic albums he made, and his influence/impact makes him one of the best MC's that ever did it. That logic you came up with is ridiculous Terry, because Biggie never had the opportunity to release more material and that's not his fault.
My other issue with LL is that he calls himself the greatest rapper of all time and he CLEARLY isn't. Many would say that he LOST his battle against Canibus, and that Canibus did more damage to his own career than LL did, mainly because of a piss-poor debut album. I have a lot of respect for LL, and had he made the Top 10 I wouldn't have been upset with it, but for me he's Top 15-20 in the East Coast.
KJ, is it safe to assume that most people would have a different opinion of LL if they were only basing their opinion on Radio and B.A.D.? My gripe isn't with the dopeness of Biggie's albums. My grip is with the quantity. There simply isn't enough material to put him ahead of people who do have the quantity and quality.
Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But let me ask you this. Even though you don't have Biggie in your personal Top 10 for the East due to not releasing enough material, can't you see why I (and others that agree with me) feel that he should be in the Top 10?
You're right, most people would have a different opinion of LL if basing it off of Radio and Bigger and Deffer. Just as I said before, had he retired after Mr Smith, or maybe even GOAT he'd be Top 10 for me easily.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 7:47 pm
KJ you voted in Q-Tip over Cool J man so your opinion here holds NO weight man, because that's just completely crazy, but it's your own personal vote based on your own personal opinion so I understand where your going with it but you know damn well Q-Tip does not get in over Cool J, and G.O.A.T. and Exit 13 are the two bangers after Mr.Smith, so yes Cool J has released some duds no denying that but he's been in the damn game since 1984 so that should be expected right???
You have already said that Cool J was just "average" on the mic before which also sounds NUTS to me especially again if your including Q-Tip on the upper echelon of emcees, who is someone Cool J would literally MURDER in a battle...you and I know that one too and I love and respect Q-Tip but real is real and fake is fake...
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 7:48 pm
there's a reason KJ that Cool J is in the top 5 emcees of all-time for a legend like Scarface my dude..real talk!
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 8:06 pm
D.Powell wrote:
KJ you voted in Q-Tip over Cool J man so your opinion here holds NO weight man, because that's just completely crazy, but it's your own personal vote based on your own personal opinion so I understand where your going with it but you know damn well Q-Tip does not get in over Cool J, and G.O.A.T. and Exit 13 are the two bangers after Mr.Smith, so yes Cool J has released some duds no denying that but he's been in the damn game since 1984 so that should be expected right???
You have already said that Cool J was just "average" on the mic before which also sounds NUTS to me especially again if your including Q-Tip on the upper echelon of emcees, who is someone Cool J would literally MURDER in a battle...you and I know that one too and I love and respect Q-Tip but real is real and fake is fake...
Q-Tip's catalog CRUSHES LL's IMO, by a LARGE MARGIN! The only dud Tip has is The Love Movement.
I never said LL was average on the mic, I said he's ABOVE AVERAGE!!! Also, Q-Tip is not a battle rapper so that catagory is meaningless. There are MANY dope MC's who aren't battle rappers, but that doesn't make them inferior to those that are by any means.
Line for line, I think Q-Tip is every bit as dope as LL. The reason I rank him over LL though is because he's FAR more consistent and I feel he even has more classics (4 to LL's 3) despite his catalog being smaller.
As for Scarface, I respect his opinion as well as yours Powell, and I don't have a problem with anybody saying that LL is Top 10 of all time because he's done enough to deserve that accolade, but he's just not in MY Top 10 of all time.
One other thing I wanna point out though, is that Scarface AND Rakim BOTH gave props to Eminem and said that he was one of the illest as well, someone who you say is overrated.
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 8:11 pm
ATCQ does not have four classics. The Rennaisance is not classic. Kamaal The Abstract might be the biggest flop/dud/fail in rap history.
Q-Tip's accomplishments do not overshadow LLs. Actually I doubt any rapper can match the quality of the first ten years of LL's career.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 8:16 pm
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
ATCQ does not have four classics. The Rennaisance is not classic. Kamaal The Abstract might be the biggest flop/dud/fail in rap history.
Q-Tip's accomplishments do not overshadow LLs. Actually I doubt any rapper can match the quality of the first ten years of LL's career.
Hmmm what's today's date 8/12/09...I've gotta mark this shit down
SRP I CO-SIGN what you just said 1 billion percent man...this is a monumental moment..
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 8:18 pm
Oh and KJ Q-Tip's catalog is how big compared to LL's???
Q-Tip has been in the game for a minute now right??(Since 1989) but he reminds me of Monch in terms of AMOUNT of material released for his AMOUNT of time in the game...he really hasn't released that much so maybe that's why you think his catalog "crushes" Cool J's...LL has put in a bunch of projects man even if some were duds...Q-Tip has just not put out the material man
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 10:24 pm
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
If LL would have retired after Mr Smith, he'd be Top 10 easily for me. But most of the albums he's made over the past decade haven't been up to par IMO.
KJ, I don't mean for this to sound like i'm calling you or Kev out, but this is the double standard i'm speaking of. LL gets penalized for making wack records, but Biggie gets a pass because he never had the opportunity to make a wack record. You nor I have any idea the path Biggie's career would have taken. If you are only going to base Biggie's inclusion on two albums, you should only base LL's inclusion based on his first two albums, right?
Well Biggie's albums can compete with LL's best IMO. We can speculate all day about what path Biggie's career would have taken. But Biggie was the undisputed leader when it came to bringing the spotlight of hip-hop BACK to the East Coast when the game was being dominated by the West. That combined with the two classic albums he made, and his influence/impact makes him one of the best MC's that ever did it. That logic you came up with is ridiculous Terry, because Biggie never had the opportunity to release more material and that's not his fault.
My other issue with LL is that he calls himself the greatest rapper of all time and he CLEARLY isn't. Many would say that he LOST his battle against Canibus, and that Canibus did more damage to his own career than LL did, mainly because of a piss-poor debut album. I have a lot of respect for LL, and had he made the Top 10 I wouldn't have been upset with it, but for me he's Top 15-20 in the East Coast.
KJ, is it safe to assume that most people would have a different opinion of LL if they were only basing their opinion on Radio and B.A.D.? My gripe isn't with the dopeness of Biggie's albums. My grip is with the quantity. There simply isn't enough material to put him ahead of people who do have the quantity and quality.
Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But let me ask you this. Even though you don't have Biggie in your personal Top 10 for the East due to not releasing enough material, can't you see why I (and others that agree with me) feel that he should be in the Top 10?
You're right, most people would have a different opinion of LL if basing it off of Radio and Bigger and Deffer. Just as I said before, had he retired after Mr Smith, or maybe even GOAT he'd be Top 10 for me easily.
I understand why you, Kev, and others vote for Biggie, and it's cool if that works for you. I never intentionally go out of my way to discredit Biggie. My whole argument on the Biggie thread came after Kev tried to get high and mighty with his comments. My comments today came after Kev tried to say something slick again. You're not the one setting off these discussions/arguments, but unfortunately, your love for Biggie puts you in the middle of them. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, but i vote a particular way, and i don't appreciate Kev or anyone else talking out of the side of their mouth with bullshit comments.
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 11:26 pm
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
ATCQ does not have four classics. The Rennaisance is not classic. Kamaal The Abstract might be the biggest flop/dud/fail in rap history.
Q-Tip's accomplishments do not overshadow LLs. Actually I doubt any rapper can match the quality of the first ten years of LL's career.
The Renaissance IS a classic IMO, and Kamaal The Abstract never got released, so how could it be a flop?
As for any rapper matching the first 10 years of LL's career, that's debatable. I can think of at least 5 (Rakim, KRS, Nas, Jay Z, Ice Cube) who put out material just as dope in their first ten years.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Wed 12 Aug 2009, 11:30 pm
D.Powell wrote:
Oh and KJ Q-Tip's catalog is how big compared to LL's???
Q-Tip has been in the game for a minute now right??(Since 1989) but he reminds me of Monch in terms of AMOUNT of material released for his AMOUNT of time in the game...he really hasn't released that much so maybe that's why you think his catalog "crushes" Cool J's...LL has put in a bunch of projects man even if some were duds...Q-Tip has just not put out the material man
If you count ATCQ, he has 7 albums. LL has 13, but he's been out since 1985 and he's been a solo rapper his entire career whereas Tip has been a group rapper until 1998.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 7:56 am
KJ Styles wrote:
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
ATCQ does not have four classics. The Rennaisance is not classic. Kamaal The Abstract might be the biggest flop/dud/fail in rap history.
Q-Tip's accomplishments do not overshadow LLs. Actually I doubt any rapper can match the quality of the first ten years of LL's career.
The Renaissance IS a classic IMO, and Kamaal The Abstract never got released, so how could it be a flop?
As for any rapper matching the first 10 years of LL's career, that's debatable. I can think of at least 5 (Rakim, KRS, Nas, Jay Z, Ice Cube) who put out material just as dope in their first ten years.
KJ the only ones on your list that have put out albums that might match Cool J's first 10 years on that list are Nas,Kris and Cube and that's some great fuckin company to be with man, I'm sure you'd agree..
Rakim (who is my GOAT) can't be included IMO because "Follow The Leader" was a decent step down from "Paid In Full", and "Don't Sweat The Technique" wasn't as good as the first three either and up against "Radio", "Bigger And Deffer", "Walking With A Panther", "Mama Said Knock You Out", then Rakim as great as he is loses this one IMO...
You can also remove Jay-Z from the equation too, "Reasonable Doubt" was a great start for him although in most heads mind that wasn't better than "Radio" and he also had the less than spectactular "In My Lifetime Vol 2 and Vol 3" thrown in there as well and he also loses IMO
Cool J was great man and I see your having a hard time swallowing that information for some reason, he was the main "relative" if you will after Run-D.M.C., they called them the Kings and Cool J was the "Prince" of Hip-Hop, not many matched his original run and certainly not all those heads you just mentioned man...
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:00 am
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:03 am
KJ Styles wrote:
D.Powell wrote:
Oh and KJ Q-Tip's catalog is how big compared to LL's???
Q-Tip has been in the game for a minute now right??(Since 1989) but he reminds me of Monch in terms of AMOUNT of material released for his AMOUNT of time in the game...he really hasn't released that much so maybe that's why you think his catalog "crushes" Cool J's...LL has put in a bunch of projects man even if some were duds...Q-Tip has just not put out the material man
If you count ATCQ, he has 7 albums. LL has 13, but he's been out since 1985 and he's been a solo rapper his entire career whereas Tip has been a group rapper until 1998.
Q-Tip has been out since 1989 man, group or no group stop that KJ...
since 1998 Q-Tip has released just 2 albums man, just two full-length efforts man, so in 11 years he has only 2 albums (not counting the one this year that's not out yet), that means he's just not putting in the work man, he's a legend and he's great at what he does but he does NOT have the PRODUCT to be in the top 10 greatest emcees out of the east coast of all-time IMO
Biggie didn't have the product either but he's killing Q-Tip as far lyrically, flow and I would even say impact wise as well which is why he makes it for me and you as well probably....but Q-Tip shouldn't be on that list over Cool J man.....and neither should GZA nor Ghostface as well
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:11 am
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
Walking With A Panther wasn't one of Cool J's duds Terry, that album was met with pretty good fanfare man although it's below the other 3 I agree with that....most hip-hop heads consider that one a 4 star effort and I do as well
And you might be right about Nas man, so that leaves only Kris (who IMO had the best start of any emcee) and Cube on KJ's list man....it even further proves my point about Cool J...
LL's known DUDS are: Phenomenon 10 The DEFinition(this album had Timbaland actually throwing him some decent beats but their chemistry was not matched up right) Todd Smith (which was his worst album ever)
so that's 4 duds in a 25 year span...not as bad as some make it out to be and he's got 13 albums so that percentage is not bad at all...he's one of the GOATS no question about it....
heads on here need to learn his ENTIRE career not just the love songs and baby making material...lol
Last edited by D.Powell on Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:22 am
Walking With A Panther was successful because of the two albums before it. I still think it's a dope album, but it was severe drop off from his first two. I know that sounds crazy, but he was coming off of two albums that were undeniable classics IMO. So even at 4 stars, It was still a disappointment to a lot of people. As far a LL's true duds, 10 and Todd Smith are the only two that i rarely spin. The rest of his albums have at least a little replay value to me.
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 12:55 pm
D.Powell wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
Southern Rap Pro wrote:
ATCQ does not have four classics. The Rennaisance is not classic. Kamaal The Abstract might be the biggest flop/dud/fail in rap history.
Q-Tip's accomplishments do not overshadow LLs. Actually I doubt any rapper can match the quality of the first ten years of LL's career.
The Renaissance IS a classic IMO, and Kamaal The Abstract never got released, so how could it be a flop?
As for any rapper matching the first 10 years of LL's career, that's debatable. I can think of at least 5 (Rakim, KRS, Nas, Jay Z, Ice Cube) who put out material just as dope in their first ten years.
KJ the only ones on your list that have put out albums that might match Cool J's first 10 years on that list are Nas,Kris and Cube and that's some great fuckin company to be with man, I'm sure you'd agree..
Rakim (who is my GOAT) can't be included IMO because "Follow The Leader" was a decent step down from "Paid In Full", and "Don't Sweat The Technique" wasn't as good as the first three either and up against "Radio", "Bigger And Deffer", "Walking With A Panther", "Mama Said Knock You Out", then Rakim as great as he is loses this one IMO...
You can also remove Jay-Z from the equation too, "Reasonable Doubt" was a great start for him although in most heads mind that wasn't better than "Radio" and he also had the less than spectactular "In My Lifetime Vol 2 and Vol 3" thrown in there as well and he also loses IMO
Cool J was great man and I see your having a hard time swallowing that information for some reason, he was the main "relative" if you will after Run-D.M.C., they called them the Kings and Cool J was the "Prince" of Hip-Hop, not many matched his original run and certainly not all those heads you just mentioned man...
Powell, I NEVER said LL wasn't great, or wasn't a legend. It's just that there's 10 East Coast MC's I personally dig more, probably a few more than that. But definitely at least 10. He's a GOAT for sure, but he's not THE GOAT like he claims to be. I don't have a problem with anybody saying that he's a Top 10 MC of all time. He just doesn't make MY Top 10.
Also, you say Follow The Leader was a step down from Paid In Full, maybe so but it's STILL a classic album IMO unlike Walking With A Panther, which I have personally rated at 3.75 stars. Objectively it could be 4 stars, but it's DEFINITELY not a classic like Follow The Leader or Let The Rhythm Hit Em. DSTT isn't a classic either, but it's better than Walking With A Panther IMO.
In the case of Jay Z, I feel that Volumes 2 and 3 are underrated. I actually have Vol 2 at 4.5 stars because of all the hit songs on it. That album sold 5 million copies for a reason IMO. Vol 3 is a 4 star album.
Basically, this is all personal preference. For example, you don't think 2Pac is a Top 10 MC of all time, but most people (myself included) do. If LL were from any other coast, I'd vote him Top 10. But the East is the toughest division in hip-hop by far, so I voted against him because there are 10 East Coasters that I dig more. Who's better than who is always and will always be debatable.
Last edited by KJ Styles on Thu 13 Aug 2009, 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 12:56 pm
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
I actually liked I Am, as did most critics. I rated it 4.25 stars.
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 1:01 pm
D.Powell wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
Walking With A Panther wasn't one of Cool J's duds Terry, that album was met with pretty good fanfare man although it's below the other 3 I agree with that....most hip-hop heads consider that one a 4 star effort and I do as well
And you might be right about Nas man, so that leaves only Kris (who IMO had the best start of any emcee) and Cube on KJ's list man....it even further proves my point about Cool J...
LL's known DUDS are: Phenomenon 10 The DEFinition(this album had Timbaland actually throwing him some decent beats but their chemistry was not matched up right) Todd Smith (which was his worst album ever)
so that's 4 duds in a 25 year span...not as bad as some make it out to be and he's got 13 albums so that percentage is not bad at all...he's one of the GOATS no question about it....
heads on here need to learn his ENTIRE career not just the love songs and baby making material...lol
I know you disagree, but 14 Shots To The Dome is a dud IMO too. Even LL himself has reportedly said that he wouldn't have dropped that album if he could go back in time.
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Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 1:01 pm
KJ, is it safe to assume that most people would have a different opinion of LL if they were only basing I understand why you, Kev, and others vote for Biggie, and it's cool if that works for you. I never intentionally go out of my way to discredit Biggie. My whole argument on the Biggie thread came after Kev tried to get high and mighty with his comments. My comments today came after Kev tried to say something slick again. You're not the one setting off these discussions/arguments, but unfortunately, your love for Biggie puts you in the middle of them. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, but i vote a particular way, and i don't appreciate Kev or anyone else talking out of the side of their mouth with bullshit comments.[/quote]
What bullshit comments?
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 1:20 pm
"Biggie and LL not making it but Gza and Pharoahe??? GTFOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Those are the comments that irked me. Like i said, i understand why certain people vote for Biggie. The problem is that Biggie lovers don't want to see why someone would not vote for him. I know you're not a huge GZA or Monch fan, but I know you still recognize their skill and their fans. You're comments imply the people who didn't vote for Biggie are dumb and/or a hater, but the fact is that no one can make an accurate argument to discredit GZA or Monch that would warrant their removal from the top 10 list. The only arguments being made are being done on a personal preference level.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 2:51 pm
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
I actually liked I Am, as did most critics. I rated it 4.25 stars.
KJ can you show me that quote where Cool J dissed 14 Shots To The Dome??? because outside of you I've never heard of him doing that...
14 Shots To The Dome was hardly a dud man, that had Marley Marl production on it as well as Buckin'Em Down, Backseat, Pink Cookies In A Plastic Bag, Stand By Your Man,A Little Something, No Frontin Allowed (featuring The Lords Of The Underground), How I'm Comin'
Please show me that quote where he said that??
the ones I listed are considered the duds...just like for Jay-Z the duds most heads think about are: Vol 2 and Vol 3, The Blueprint 2-The Gift And The Curse,Kingdom Come
so legends will release duds too man, shit happens right?? ohh and Follow The Leader was not a classic, it was good but a major step down from Paid In Full, just like Walking With A Panther was a step down for Cool J and Rakim is my GOAT and I'm saying this...again at the end of the day it's all opinions anyway so I do agree there man
Last edited by D.Powell on Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
Deanie O'Banion Backwoods Burna, Mac & Murda
Posts : 3100 Join date : 2009-05-07 Location : SLO
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:07 pm
Backseat is the jam, I love 14 Shots, but that's probably not helping your case to an eastcoast head like KJ.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:10 pm
T. Myers wrote:
"Biggie and LL not making it but Gza and Pharoahe??? GTFOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Those are the comments that irked me. Like i said, i understand why certain people vote for Biggie. The problem is that Biggie lovers don't want to see why someone would not vote for him. I know you're not a huge GZA or Monch fan, but I know you still recognize their skill and their fans. You're comments imply the people who didn't vote for Biggie are dumb and/or a hater, but the fact is that no one can make an accurate argument to discredit GZA or Monch that would warrant their removal from the top 10 list. The only arguments being made are being done on a personal preference level.
I was just venting but it is still crazy to me. And that personal preference works both ways. You can't make a accurate agrument about Biggie either it's all just "what if" this and "I think" that. And why did it irk you? I did not mention any names but yet once again you bit the bait. Are you a hater of Biggie?
I have accurate reasons why Gza is not top 10:
1. No personality at all 2. Only one classic album. 3. Boring delivery 4. Inconsistant discog 5. There are too many on the east coast that are betta period.
All Gza has going for him imo is lyrics and being apart of the Wu Tang. He brings nothing original to the game.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:12 pm
Powell you mentioned Vol. 2 as a Jay dud? Do you feel that way or are you saying critics?
T. Myers One Of A Kind
Posts : 10879 Join date : 2009-05-06 Age : 42
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:17 pm
none of your arguments are factual. They are strictly opinion and preference. I never tried to "prove" Biggie shouldn't be in your top 10. I merely defended why GZA and Monch were in my top 10 instead of Biggie.
Half Paragraphs Relentless
Posts : 6865 Join date : 2009-06-12 Age : 247 Location : A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:18 pm
D.Powell wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
I actually liked I Am, as did most critics. I rated it 4.25 stars.
KJ can you show me that quote where Cool J dissed 14 Shots To The Dome??? because outside of you I've never heard of him doing that...
14 Shots To The Dome was hardly a dud man, that had Marley Marl production on it as well as Buckin'Em Down, Backseat, Pink Cookies In A Plastic Bag, Stand By Your Man,A Little Something, No Frontin Allowed (featuring The Lords Of The Underground), How I'm Comin'
Please show me that quote where he said that??
the ones I listed are considered the duds...just like for Jay-Z the duds most heads think about are: Vol 2 and Vol 3, The Blueprint 2-The Gift And The Curse,Kingdom Come
so legends will release duds too man, shit happens right?? ohh and Follow The Leader was not a classic, it was good but a major step down from Paid In Full, just like Walking With A Panther was a step down for Cool J and Rakim is my GOAT and I'm saying this...again at the end of the day it's all opinions anyway so I do agree there man
I think that Paid In Full = Follow The Leader. I spin both equally.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:18 pm
KRob86 wrote:
Powell you mentioned Vol. 2 as a Jay dud? Do you feel that way or are you saying critics?
I'm saying the critics although I do feel that album was 3.5 stars at best for me...it had major hits but was too inconsistent for me..Vol 1 in comparison was way better IMO!
Also what you wrote about GZA I completely agree with...he only has one consensus classic to his name and he's kinda boring on the mic IMO, he does have lyrics for days though and he is in my top 20 emcees of all-time but he's not the best in his own group IMO, that title goes to Johnny Blaze...I think Meth is a better emcee than GZA even if it's not by much
Last edited by D.Powell on Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:19 pm
Future you really think Follow The Leader is on the same level as Paid In Full???
WOW!
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:20 pm
You know what Powell I was thinking about Vol. 1..lol. My fault that is why I had to ask. But yeah Vol. 2-3 was not all of that but still good.
And Terry no disrespect to your top man i'm just sharing my thoughts.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:32 pm
D.Powell wrote:
KJ Styles wrote:
T. Myers wrote:
while i do agree with you Powell, Walking With A Panther could be considered a dud too. I think Nastradamus and I Am would eliminate Nas from the discussion.
I actually liked I Am, as did most critics. I rated it 4.25 stars.
KJ can you show me that quote where Cool J dissed 14 Shots To The Dome??? because outside of you I've never heard of him doing that...
14 Shots To The Dome was hardly a dud man, that had Marley Marl production on it as well as Buckin'Em Down, Backseat, Pink Cookies In A Plastic Bag, Stand By Your Man,A Little Something, No Frontin Allowed (featuring The Lords Of The Underground), How I'm Comin'
Please show me that quote where he said that??
the ones I listed are considered the duds...just like for Jay-Z the duds most heads think about are: Vol 2 and Vol 3, The Blueprint 2-The Gift And The Curse,Kingdom Come
so legends will release duds too man, shit happens right?? ohh and Follow The Leader was not a classic, it was good but a major step down from Paid In Full, just like Walking With A Panther was a step down for Cool J and Rakim is my GOAT and I'm saying this...again at the end of the day it's all opinions anyway so I do agree there man
I remember reading a Source article where he said that 14 Shots in hindsight was a let down. I tried to find it online but I couldn't. I'm not making it up though. Most critics say it's a let down as well.
Follow The Leader is EASILY a classic IMO. I'd rank it among my 50 favorite hip-hop albums of all time so I disagree with you there. I also disagree with Volumes 2 and 3 being duds, especially Vol 2 which had more hits than Pete Rose in his prime. About the only bad review I've ever seen for it was RapReviews.com, but I don't agree with them all that often anyway. The Source gave both those albums 4.5 mics. Vol 2 is 4.5 stars IMO and Vol 3 is 4 stars.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:37 pm
[quote="D.Powell"]
KRob86 wrote:
Also what you wrote about GZA I completely agree with...he only has one consensus classic to his name and he's kinda boring on the mic IMO, he does have lyrics for days though and he is in my top 20 emcees of all-time but he's not the best in his own group IMO, that title goes to Johnny Blaze...I think Meth is a better emcee than GZA even if it's not by much
I disagree with this as well. GZA is the best line for line in Wu-Tang IMO, and Meth is maybe 3rd or 4th at best.
Kevin is wrong too. NONE of what he said was correct. Inconsistent discog?? That's BULLSHIT! While I agree that LS is his only classic, none of his albums are less than 4 stars.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:47 pm
[quote="KJ Styles"]
D.Powell wrote:
KRob86 wrote:
Also what you wrote about GZA I completely agree with...he only has one consensus classic to his name and he's kinda boring on the mic IMO, he does have lyrics for days though and he is in my top 20 emcees of all-time but he's not the best in his own group IMO, that title goes to Johnny Blaze...I think Meth is a better emcee than GZA even if it's not by much
I disagree with this as well. GZA is the best line for line in Wu-Tang IMO, and Meth is maybe 3rd or 4th at best.
Kevin is wrong too. NONE of what he said was correct. Inconsistent discog?? That's BULLSHIT! While I agree that LS is his only classic, none of his albums are less than 4 stars.
And GZA should be in the top 10 OF ALL-TIME on the east coast with only one fuckin classic KJ?? and hardly no impact to boot, and a put you straight to sleep flow?? I have never heard one emcee say that they were influenced by GZA...not one, but I've seen Johnny Blaze mentioned...and his lyrics and impact are better than GZA's, I guess Biggie picked him to be on his album for reason huh?
How many classics would you say that Cool J had KJ??
Also Vol 2 from Jay the amount of "hits" from Vol 2 didn't mean it was a classic effort KJ who told you that man?? Jay has released much better product since then and before it too....Vol 3 was a dud man, plain and simple and it had hits too...SO WHAT...
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 3:50 pm
Follow The Leader is not a classic album from the GOAT Rakim my dude now Paid In Full and Let The Rhythm Hit 'Em are without doubt
Follow The Leader is 4 stars as there are at least 3 songs on it that are pretty skippable my dude!
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 4:07 pm
[quote="D.Powell"]
KJ Styles wrote:
D.Powell wrote:
KRob86 wrote:
Also what you wrote about GZA I completely agree with...he only has one consensus classic to his name and he's kinda boring on the mic IMO, he does have lyrics for days though and he is in my top 20 emcees of all-time but he's not the best in his own group IMO, that title goes to Johnny Blaze...I think Meth is a better emcee than GZA even if it's not by much
I disagree with this as well. GZA is the best line for line in Wu-Tang IMO, and Meth is maybe 3rd or 4th at best.
Kevin is wrong too. NONE of what he said was correct. Inconsistent discog?? That's BULLSHIT! While I agree that LS is his only classic, none of his albums are less than 4 stars.
And GZA should be in the top 10 OF ALL-TIME on the east coast with only one fuckin classic KJ?? and hardly no impact to boot, and a put you straight to sleep flow?? I have never heard one emcee say that they were influenced by GZA...not one, but I've seen Johnny Blaze mentioned...and his lyrics and impact are better than GZA's, I guess Biggie picked him to be on his album for reason huh?
How many classics would you say that Cool J had KJ??
Also Vol 2 from Jay the amount of "hits" from Vol 2 didn't mean it was a classic effort KJ who told you that man?? Jay has released much better product since then and before it too....Vol 3 was a dud man, plain and simple and it had hits too...SO WHAT...
Well, I bump Liquid Swords more than ANY of LL's albums. Also, as I've told you before, the most important thing to me when I rank MC's is CONSISTENCY and GZA has clearly been more consistent than LL. I also feel he's a better lyricist, but that's just my personal opinion.
Radio and Mama Said Knock You Out are the only LL albums I bump nowadays. Bigger and Deffer is a classic, but I only bump a select few tracks on it. I also can't believe that you don't consider Follow The Leader a classic. Sure, it wasn't better than Paid In Full, but Bigger and Deffer isn't as good as Radio and it's still a classic. There's not ONE wack song on Follow The Leader, and it contains 3 of his all time best songs. Follow The Leader, Microphone Fiend, and Lyrics Of Fury.
Who's said that they were influenced by Meth? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't heard anyone say that.
As for Meth vs GZA. Sure, Meth may have made more impact because he's more commercial, but GZA is clearly the better lyricist IMO. Not to mention that GZA's "One Classic" is ONE MORE than Meth has. In fact, Tical is the only GOOD solo album Meth has. Everything else has been garbage IMO. He comes correct on group projects, but his solo career has been VERY sub-par. GZA's flow doesn't put me to sleep AT ALL. Many of his songs have me hitting the playback button due to how creative he is! Meth hasn't done that for me in quite some time. I can post some lyrics by GZA if you want examples. As for Biggie picking him to be on his album, that was at a time when Meth was a beast, and GZA hadn't dropped Liquid Swords as of yet. Meth is the most commercial in Wu-Tang, but that doesn't make him the best MC in it. If he were really the best, he would have released more than one memorable album.
As for Jay Z, I never said Vol 2 is a classic, but I do like it a lot as well as Vol 3. It's all opinion though. You say they are duds but I disagree entirely.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 4:08 pm
D.Powell wrote:
Follow The Leader is not a classic album from the GOAT Rakim my dude now Paid In Full and Let The Rhythm Hit 'Em are without doubt
Follow The Leader is 4 stars as there are at least 3 songs on it that are pretty skippable my dude!
Follow The Leader >>>>>>>>>>>> Let The Rhythm Hit Em
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 4:42 pm
KJ I gotta give you some props here for your GZA stance, I agree, Kevin is a fuckin' moron to say GZA is inconsistent cuz AT WORST he dropped ONE 3.5 star the rest are 4+.
But calling Renaissance classic? LMAO. You gay.
D.Powell NYC's Finest
Posts : 7631 Join date : 2009-05-11 Age : 103 Location : the back of a barn
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 5:40 pm
Yeah this is most def personal preference KJ because I bump Radio, Mama Said Knock You Out and Bigger And Deffer more than Liquid Swords, actually of the Wu-Tang catalog I bump Only Built For Cuban Linx and Ironman more than I bump Liquid Swords too, but that doesn't mean Liquid Swords is not a classic...the reason I mentioned that as GZA's only classic is because yor putting him in the top 10 of all-time from the east coast over Cool J who has at least 3 classic albums..that's why I mentioned that as his only classic
I do think that Meth is better than him on the mic though, that to me is no question, it's not about whose more commercial, that has nothing to do with it...I just think Meth is better than him on the mic from a technical standpoint even with no classics....What saves Meth are his guest appearances and the joints he did with Redman and he held his own against him on the mic as well on those joints....neither GZA nor Meth are anything to be taken lightly on the mic, as well as Cool J too!
Meth has been mentioned by 50 Cent, Lloyd Banks, Ja-Rule and Lil Wayne as having been influenced by him on the mic in various interviews in The Sauce and Vibe magazine before...so his influence is strong even if those emcees mentioned are average to below average on the mic...I'm only talking about his influence now....
Last edited by D.Powell on Thu 13 Aug 2009, 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 6:34 pm
Steve wrote:
KJ I gotta give you some props here for your GZA stance, I agree, Kevin is a fuckin' moron to say GZA is inconsistent cuz AT WORST he dropped ONE 3.5 star the rest are 4+.
But calling Renaissance classic? LMAO. You gay.
I liked every song on the Renaissance, hence to me it's a classic.
Alan Smokes More Trees Than The Slash And Burn Technique
Posts : 5364 Join date : 2009-06-11 Age : 42 Location : Minneapolis, MN
Subject: Re: LL Cool J Thu 13 Aug 2009, 7:01 pm
LL didn't even have a remotely close chance of making my top 10.
And it shouldn't be a surprise that many people didn't vote for him. After all, we are talking about the east coast. Everybody's top 10 from the east has holes in it because there's simply too much dopeness not to leave a pioneer off the list. Not to mention personal preference. I've heard the best from LL, and (again) he does not come close to my list.