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 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37

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Top 50, Top 100, or Neither?
Top 50
16%
 16% [ 3 ]
Top 100
53%
 53% [ 10 ]
Neither
31%
 31% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 19
 

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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:14 pm

Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:
Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Whoa, Al, I think you're taking this a lil too far. "Told some truly memorable stories"? You're comparing Will Smith to Slick Rick, Biggie, etc? REALLY?

Truly memorable stories indeed. Not sure how that's taking it too far. Just giving props where it's due. How closely have you listen to a DJJJ&TFP record before? Not to closely?

I agree with you on his storytelling ability. Brand New Funk (my personal fav song from him), Nightmare On My Street, Girls Ain't Nothin But Trouble, and I Think I Can Beat Mike Tyson are awesome stories, but IMO Will is an average lyricist who sounded above average at times because of Jeff's beats.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:17 pm

Umm Terry just because (not you) but the clueless heads on here voted Wu-Tang over a collective (the Juice Crew) that happened to be before their time doesn't necessarily mean that the Wu is better

it just means that more young heads on here are aware of them then they are of The Juice Crew

The Juice Crew is the most talented collective to ever make hip-hop music...that much talent in one collective will never be seen again

it doesn't matter what the unaware heads on this forum think
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:19 pm

KJ Styles wrote:
Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:
Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Whoa, Al, I think you're taking this a lil too far. "Told some truly memorable stories"? You're comparing Will Smith to Slick Rick, Biggie, etc? REALLY?

Truly memorable stories indeed. Not sure how that's taking it too far. Just giving props where it's due. How closely have you listen to a DJJJ&TFP record before? Not to closely?

I agree with you on his storytelling ability. Brand New Funk (my personal fav song from him), Nightmare On My Street, Girls Ain't Nothin But Trouble, and I Think I Can Beat Mike Tyson are awesome stories, but IMO Will is an average lyricist who sounded above average at times because of Jeff's beats.

I can see that. He sounded so great to me because him and Jeff were like joined at the hip at birth...lol...well not seriously, but I dare you (or N3RO rather) to find a duo as much in tune with each other than DJJJ&TFP were. The chemistry is boiling.

Great call on "Brand New Funk". That is also my favorite of theirs! Of course Summertime, Here We Go Again, Charlie Mack's The First Out The Limo, I'm All That (maybe my #2 fav)....TOO MANY TO LIST! lol....sorry, but I seriously meant it when I said this duo is top 50 for me.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:20 pm

D.Powell wrote:
Umm Terry just because (not you) but the clueless heads on here voted Wu-Tang over a collective (the Juice Crew) that happened to be before their time doesn't necessarily mean that the Wu is better

it just means that more young heads on here are aware of them then they are of The Juice Crew

The Juice Crew is the most talented collective to ever make hip-hop music...that much talent in one collective will never be seen again

it doesn't matter what the unaware heads on this forum think

FYI Powell, I voted for the Juice Crew. I'd say the Native Tongues have just about as much talent though overall.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:21 pm

Nah Native Tongues is close but no cigar IMO

I've got them below the Wu for overall talent

they don't have the lyricists to match up man
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:23 pm

D.Powell wrote:
Nah Native Tongues is close but no cigar IMO

I've got them below the Wu for overall talent

they don't have the lyricists to match up man

Maybe not solo lyricists, but I'd pick a number of Quest's or De La's CD's over Wu's.

I've got 4 Wu CD's in my Top 50 (one group and three solo's) and I've got 3 from Quest and 3 from De La. I've also got Black Sheep's debut in my Top 50.

The Low End Theory is the best CD from either crew IMO.


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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:26 pm

Yeah but I'm not just taking about albums man I'm talking about overall talent...emceeing/producing..etc

who from Native Tongues is messin with Ghost lyrically??

how about Meth lyrically??

how about RZA's production??

how about Marley's production??

who from Native Tongues is seeing Kane or G Rap lyrically??

how about Tragedy or Craig G in a battle??

Native Tongues is very talented but they can't mess with either one of those outfits IMO


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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:29 pm

Midnight Marauders is the best Tribe effort IMO and the only one that can mess with Enta The 36 Chambers

I have The Low End Theory below 36 Chambers IMO and if I add on Kane's Long Live The Kane and It's A Big Daddy Thang

or G Rap's Road To The Riches or Live and Let Die then it gets uglier....lol
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:29 pm

voted neither. corny raps. I like charlie mack, summertime, nuthin but trouble and a few others, but they are not top 100 at all.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:32 pm

I see your points, but I think Q-Tip and Posdanous can see Ghost and Meth lyrically. The only guy in Wu that outshines either of them is GZA. I agree that none of them can see Kane or G Rap either, but they have better discographies than both of them.

They aren't battle rappers so I wasn't even putting that into the equation, all I was talking about is classic albums and songs. On that tip I'd say they're even if not better.


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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:37 pm

D.Powell wrote:
Midnight Marauders is the best Tribe effort IMO and the only one that can mess with Enta The 36 Chambers

I have The Low End Theory below 36 Chambers IMO and if I add on Kane's Long Live The Kane and It's A Big Daddy Thang

or G Rap's Road To The Riches or Live and Let Die then it gets uglier....lol

I like Low End Theory better than 36 Chambers personally, and I like both of them better than MM although MM is awesome.

You also have to account for People's Instinctive Travels, 3 Feet High & Rising, De La Soul Is Dead, Stakes Is High, and A Wolf In Sheep's Clothing.

Personally, I'd take any of those over G Rap's albums although I love G Rap,
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:40 pm

Gotta agree with KJ: I'd take Native Tongues over Wu Tang for sure.

I'm not sure about Wiki's info, but now I'm even more clear about it...lol...

Founding members

* Jungle Brothers (Mike Gee, Afrika Baby Bam, and DJ Sammy B)
* De La Soul (Posdnous, Trugoy, and Maseo)
* A Tribe Called Quest (Q-Tip, Phife Dawg, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, and Jarobi White)
* Prince Paul
* Kool DJ Red Alert

Other flagship members

* Monie Love
* Queen Latifah (short-lived NT member)
* Chi-Ali
* Black Sheep (Dres and Mista Lawnge)
* The Beatnuts

Later additions (c. 1989-1998)

* Da Bush Babees
* Mos Def
* Talib Kweli
* Common
* Fu-Schnickens (Poc-Fu, Chip-Fu and Moc-Fu)
* Leaders of the New School (Busta Rhymes, Charlie Brown aka C Boogie Brown, Dinco D, and Cut Monitor Milo)

Peripheral members/Affiliates

* Vinia Mojica
* Shortie No Mass
* Truth Enola
* Lucien Revolucien
* Punchline & Wordsworth
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:41 pm

I hear ya dawg but your only discussing albums, which all three camps have released classic material over the years but your not discussing lyricism

do you really believe that De La Soul or A Tribe Called Quest (both of whom I love) can hang with G Rap or Ghostface or Kane or GZA lyrically??

because I think they fall waay short lyrically...not album wise maybe but lyrically they would get their asses waxed man
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:43 pm

D.Powell wrote:
I hear ya dawg but your only discussing albums, which all three camps have released classic material over the years but your not discussing lyricism

do you really believe that De La Soul or A Tribe Called Quest (both of whom I love) can hang with G Rap or Ghostface or Kane or GZA lyrically??

because I think they fall waay short lyrically...not album wise maybe but lyrically they would get their asses waxed man

Perhaps. But when I think of Native Tongues, I don't think of a collective of battle rappers or hardcore emcees. They held down the smooth jazzy shit and the alternative hip-hop wave. That's why I (personally) dig them more. But they would not win on the battle tip obviously.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:43 pm

I've got it:

Juice Crew-the greatest hip-hop collective to ever do the damn music

Wu-Tang-a group and collective who did this genre extremely well

Native Tongues-an incredible collective with some very original styles


these are my top three hip-hop collectives of all-time and in that order and they all originate in NYC....gotta love it man
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:44 pm

D.Powell wrote:

do you really believe that De La Soul or A Tribe Called Quest (both of whom I love) can hang with G Rap or Ghostface or Kane or GZA lyrically??

because I think they fall waay short lyrically...not album wise maybe but lyrically they would get their asses waxed man

I think Tip and Posdanous are better than Ghost (even though I love him) but the other three you mentioned are better overall lyricists I agree.

I think Dres from Black Sheep is an awesome lyricist too who was largely underrated.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:45 pm

D.Powell wrote:
I've got it:

Juice Crew-the greatest hip-hop collective to ever do the damn music

Wu-Tang-a group and collective who did this genre extremely well

Native Tongues-an incredible collective with some very original styles


these are my top three hip-hop collectives of all-time and in that order and they all originate in NYC....gotta love it man

Those are my three favorite crews as well, I feel ya on that!
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:50 pm

Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:
Gotta agree with KJ: I'd take Native Tongues over Wu Tang for sure.

I'm not sure about Wiki's info, but now I'm even more clear about it...lol...

Founding members

* Jungle Brothers (Mike Gee, Afrika Baby Bam, and DJ Sammy B)
* De La Soul (Posdnous, Trugoy, and Maseo)
* A Tribe Called Quest (Q-Tip, Phife Dawg, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, and Jarobi White)
* Prince Paul
* Kool DJ Red Alert

Other flagship members

* Monie Love
* Queen Latifah (short-lived NT member)
* Chi-Ali
* Black Sheep (Dres and Mista Lawnge)
* The Beatnuts

Later additions (c. 1989-1998)

* Da Bush Babees
* Mos Def
* Talib Kweli
* Common
* Fu-Schnickens (Poc-Fu, Chip-Fu and Moc-Fu)
* Leaders of the New School (Busta Rhymes, Charlie Brown aka C Boogie Brown, Dinco D, and Cut Monitor Milo)

Peripheral members/Affiliates

* Vinia Mojica
* Shortie No Mass
* Truth Enola
* Lucien Revolucien
* Punchline & Wordsworth

Damn! I didn't know that Blackstar (Kweli and Mos Def) and Common were Native Tongue members.

That being the case, I'd say it's a push between them and Juice Crew (although the edge goes to Native Tongues for discography) and easily over Wu-Tang.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:55 pm

KJ Styles wrote:
Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:
Gotta agree with KJ: I'd take Native Tongues over Wu Tang for sure.

I'm not sure about Wiki's info, but now I'm even more clear about it...lol...

Founding members

* Jungle Brothers (Mike Gee, Afrika Baby Bam, and DJ Sammy B)
* De La Soul (Posdnous, Trugoy, and Maseo)
* A Tribe Called Quest (Q-Tip, Phife Dawg, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, and Jarobi White)
* Prince Paul
* Kool DJ Red Alert

Other flagship members

* Monie Love
* Queen Latifah (short-lived NT member)
* Chi-Ali
* Black Sheep (Dres and Mista Lawnge)
* The Beatnuts

Later additions (c. 1989-1998)

* Da Bush Babees
* Mos Def
* Talib Kweli
* Common
* Fu-Schnickens (Poc-Fu, Chip-Fu and Moc-Fu)
* Leaders of the New School (Busta Rhymes, Charlie Brown aka C Boogie Brown, Dinco D, and Cut Monitor Milo)

Peripheral members/Affiliates

* Vinia Mojica
* Shortie No Mass
* Truth Enola
* Lucien Revolucien
* Punchline & Wordsworth

Damn! I didn't know that Blackstar (Kweli and Mos Def) and Common were Native Tongue members.

That being the case, I'd say it's a push between them and Juice Crew (although the edge goes to Native Tongues for discography) and easily over Wu-Tang.

Oh yeah, I was aware of it, but it seems unfair...lol...Like, they never added anyone to the Juice Crew 10 years after their inception.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 4:58 pm

Never knew that Common or Blackstar or any of those later cats were ever members of the Native Tongues and if they were by the time they joined the original cats were no longer a part of the collective

I always knew Native Tongues as:

Prince Paul-leader/producer

The Jungle Bros
A Tribe Called Quest
Kool DJ Red Alert-another leader/producer
Queen Latifah
Monie Love
De La Soul
Black Sheep
Chi Ali

that was always The Native Tongues...were these other heads came from I don't know
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 5:02 pm

D.Powell wrote:
Never knew that Common or Blackstar or any of those later cats were ever members of the Native Tongues and if they were by the time they joined the original cats were no longer

I always knew Native Tongues as:

Prince Paul-leader/producer

The Jungle Bros
A Tribe Called Quest
Kool DJ Red Alert
Queen Latifah
Monie Love
De La Soul
Black Sheep
Chi Ali

that was always The Native Tongues...were these other heads came from I don't know

That would be the fair way to put them against each other. But I thought Common was enlisted way back on his first LP? But yeah, Mos Def & Kweli weren't getting in until '98...

Powell, wasn't Fu-Schnickens, Leaders of the New School, The Beatnuts, & Da Bush Babees added early on? Especially LOTNS. I mean, I thought Busta was always clearly part of the crew...(?)
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 5:10 pm

I don't remember LONS being a part of that crew...I actually remember them being a part of PE/Chuck D's crew....Chuck is the one that gave Busta Rhymes his name

Busta was always tight with Q-Tip

The Beatnuts were down with Red Alert but I never remember them as being a part of the Native Tongues

samething goes for Da Bush Babees......I never remember them being members of that crew
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 5:19 pm

D.Powell wrote:
I don't remember LONS being a part of that crew...I actually remember them being a part of PE/Chuck D's crew....Chuck is the one that gave Busta Rhymes his name

Busta was always tight with Q-Tip

The Beatnuts were down with Red Alert but I never remember them as being a part of the Native Tongues

samething goes for Da Bush Babees......I never remember them being members of that crew

Hmmm, per Wiki...

"Fostered by Kool DJ Red Alert, the success of the Jungle Brothers would pave the way for De La Soul and A Tribe Called Quest; together, these three groups would form the core of the posse and continue the spirit of Afrika Bambaataa and the Zulu Nation. By 1989 they had been joined by Leaders of the New School, Queen Latifah and the UK's Monie Love, and soon by the Black Sheep & Chi-Ali."

However, many of the seem to be fringe members, or as they call them "peripheral" or "flagship" members. Which is why I stated I wasn't sure how Wiki broke that down.

New school members or not, LONS were down since early on...well before their first LP.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 6:18 pm

where does it say that LONS was down since the beginning at??

LONS was down with Chuck and Da Bomd Squad not Native Tongues
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 7:36 pm

D.Powell wrote:
where does it say that LONS was down since the beginning at??

LONS was down with Chuck and Da Bomd Squad not Native Tongues

Alan took that from the Native Tongues Wikipedia page.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 8:18 pm

Never got threw a Fresh Prince album. Parents Just Dont Understand was a hit back in the day though. For me, DJ Jazzy Jeff has released two classics and their called "The Magnificent" and "The Return of the Magnificent". I'm still blown away that it was Jazzy Jeff behind the boards on those two albums.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 8:37 pm

Al, seriously. Just because I don't think Will Smith is a "great songwriter" doesn't mean I've never heard one of his records, that's being facetitious. This isn't Biggie, this is Will SMITH, dude hasn't written his own rhymes in 20 years...
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 9:23 pm

D.Powell wrote:
Umm Terry just because (not you) but the clueless heads on here voted Wu-Tang over a collective (the Juice Crew) that happened to be before their time doesn't necessarily mean that the Wu is better

it just means that more young heads on here are aware of them then they are of The Juice Crew

The Juice Crew is the most talented collective to ever make hip-hop music...that much talent in one collective will never be seen again

it doesn't matter what the unaware heads on this forum think

LOL! I was joking with with N3R0 when i said that. He seemed to get it, but you and KJ took it seriously. I personally like The Wu Tang Clan better, but it's only by the smallest of margins. I never expected them to beat the Juice Crew. Let alone by a wide margin. Those two collectives are probably my two favorite. I like Native Tongues, but they aren't better than the other two.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 9:28 pm

Jeff, pass that once you're done smokin' it...

Wild Wild West, MIB, and Independence Day? What albums are those? He didn't even rhyme on the ID soundtrack. The other two are soundtracks...soundtracks that contained dope tracks from Will, Common, A Tribe Called Quest and many other dope cuts. Of course they weren't air tight hip hop albums...they were soundtracks. What you're attempting to do would be similar to pinning the Bad Boys II Soundtrack on Nelly. Nonsensical...

Big Willie Style is dope...Willenium, while not as good, is dope. Lost & Found is dope. The only stinker is Born To Reign. I mean, if you know his steez, then you know his albums don't stray very far from what he was doing before...he just doesn't have Jeff doing 100% of the production.

This group is top 50 in my book, but I can see why they aren't for others. The only way you could miss their impact is if you weren't there while they were laying it down.

And Kev has no point...see Al's Gang Starr reference...
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 9:41 pm

I'm saying songs, Norf, I assumed you'd know that if you read the whole thread, and the ONLY ID4 comment I made was in regards to time period, not music. I said "since independence day"...that's all I'm going to add to this convo. Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 9:49 pm

Dude...

"I feel you what you're saying Al, but we gotta take Big Willie Style, Willenium, Men In Black, Wild Wild West, etc. into account. I know they're not a "duo" at this time but seriously...that's gotta mar your career."

Is that what you meant by "songs"...? lol I threw in ID because the songs he dropped during that period (none) weren't bad and he dropped Big Willie Style (a dope album) after it. The only stinker was Born To Reign and even that was a 3 star effort in my book.

Maybe he'd get more props if he lied in the booth and "kept it real" like this guy that has never been a pimp a day in his life (his words, not mine) but raps about being one on record. If anything, Will keeps it "realer" than most.

Oh, and I read the ENTIRE thread before I replied.

Again, pass that. Don't break the cypher... LOL
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 10:10 pm

Kopasetick wrote:
Dude...

"I feel you what you're saying Al, but we gotta take Big Willie Style, Willenium, Men In Black, Wild Wild West, etc. into account. I know they're not a "duo" at this time but seriously...that's gotta mar your career."

Is that what you meant by "songs"...? lol I threw in ID because the songs he dropped during that period (none) weren't bad and he dropped Big Willie Style (a dope album) after it. The only stinker was Born To Reign and even that was a 3 star effort in my book.

Maybe he'd get more props if he lied in the booth and "kept it real" like this guy that has never been a pimp a day in his life (his words, not mine) but raps about being one on record. If anything, Will keeps it "realer" than most.

Oh, and I read the ENTIRE thread before I replied.

Again, pass that. Don't break the cypher... LOL

Nor what you mean I have no point? The way you feel about Will is the way I feel about Short so don't try to make mine seem pointless. Will Smith got corny to me and really always has been but I respect and like a lot of his music. I like the way he "keeps it real" and so did Short for making that clear from day one.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 10:39 pm

KRob86 wrote:
Nor what you mean I have no point? The way you feel about Will is the way I feel about Short so don't try to make mine seem pointless. Will Smith got corny to me and really always has been but I respect and like a lot of his music. I like the way he "keeps it real" and so did Short for making that clear from day one.

No sir...you missed me, Kev...

"We should take everything into consideration when picking the slot. I put "Will Smith" because we should take his solo stuff into account also. Same with any other artist, I find it funny and bullish that Will later career did not hurt him from getting in like it hurt Short..."

Kev, you and I know that Will hasn't dropped some of the turds that Short has, so his legacy doesn't get dragged down because those albums are respectable. He didn't abandon his steez and start making tracks like "Shake That Monkey" (a track I happen to like lol). Can you defend albums like Get Off The Stage? Come on, Kev. I meant you had no point because Gang Starr didn't get the same treatment (see: Guru's bogus solo attempts) that JJ & FP are getting. That's also what I mean about Al's point...

And, Short raps about being a pimp (something he admits he isn't). How is that keeping it real? He may be doing it in interviews, but he sure isn't doing it on wax...
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 11:02 pm

Once again Norf, what I said was "SINCE Independence Day" and he has dropped music SINCE ID4...not "in that time period". And you admitted that AFTER that time period, he did in fact drop some dookie.

I said NOTHING about his lyrics, subject matter, etc. All I said was dude didn't write his own lyrics...and that his stories were nothing mind blowing. Amusing? Sure. Entertaining? Absolutely! But I have a hard time putting in the same group as dudes that take their music very seriously when this guy is focusing most of his energy at acting (which he is extremely underrated at as well). Truth be told, I think Will WAS under-rated and that (much like Short Dog himself) gets a lot of hate from new school heads because everything post Jazzy Jeff has been corny or wack. How is Big Willie such a great songwriter if he doesn't come up with his own lyrics? When has he written a bridge? Gotten a co-producer credit? I'm not saying these are my qualifications for a top 50 or whatever, I'm just saying that people are calling him things I disagree with and this is why. I voted him top 100, and I'm sticking by it. He had some dope shit in the 80's/90's, but I sincerely am not a fan of anything, again, post Jazzy Jeff(except that song about his son off of Big Willie Style, that was heartfelt and had a dope sample to match the concept).
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Tue 26 May 2009, 11:44 pm

Kopasetick wrote:
KRob86 wrote:
Nor what you mean I have no point? The way you feel about Will is the way I feel about Short so don't try to make mine seem pointless. Will Smith got corny to me and really always has been but I respect and like a lot of his music. I like the way he "keeps it real" and so did Short for making that clear from day one.

No sir...you missed me, Kev...

"We should take everything into consideration when picking the slot. I put "Will Smith" because we should take his solo stuff into account also. Same with any other artist, I find it funny and bullish that Will later career did not hurt him from getting in like it hurt Short..."

Kev, you and I know that Will hasn't dropped some of the turds that Short has, so his legacy doesn't get dragged down because those albums are respectable. He didn't abandon his steez and start making tracks like "Shake That Monkey" (a track I happen to like lol). Can you defend albums like Get Off The Stage? Come on, Kev. I meant you had no point because Gang Starr didn't get the same treatment (see: Guru's bogus solo attempts) that JJ & FP are getting. That's also what I mean about Al's point...

And, Short raps about being a pimp (something he admits he isn't). How is that keeping it real? He may be doing it in interviews, but he sure isn't doing it on wax...

Well Nor that is where we both feel the same way about both artists. I did not like the whole "Will Smith" thing and I looked at it as very bad for his legacy how his style never really grew and how extremely poppish Prince got. So the sameway you look at "Shake That Monkey" is the sameway I see "Gettin Jiggy Wit It". I see what you mean about the Gangstarr arguement and I should have mentioned take Guru solo's into account but the question was about Gangstarr alone because that is where Guru made the most noise and is most known for. Fresh Prince on the other hand had a very very successful career without Jeff so I figured we need to bring that into the equation.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 8:47 am

KRob86 wrote:
Kopasetick wrote:
KRob86 wrote:
Nor what you mean I have no point? The way you feel about Will is the way I feel about Short so don't try to make mine seem pointless. Will Smith got corny to me and really always has been but I respect and like a lot of his music. I like the way he "keeps it real" and so did Short for making that clear from day one.

No sir...you missed me, Kev...

"We should take everything into consideration when picking the slot. I put "Will Smith" because we should take his solo stuff into account also. Same with any other artist, I find it funny and bullish that Will later career did not hurt him from getting in like it hurt Short..."

Kev, you and I know that Will hasn't dropped some of the turds that Short has, so his legacy doesn't get dragged down because those albums are respectable. He didn't abandon his steez and start making tracks like "Shake That Monkey" (a track I happen to like lol). Can you defend albums like Get Off The Stage? Come on, Kev. I meant you had no point because Gang Starr didn't get the same treatment (see: Guru's bogus solo attempts) that JJ & FP are getting. That's also what I mean about Al's point...

And, Short raps about being a pimp (something he admits he isn't). How is that keeping it real? He may be doing it in interviews, but he sure isn't doing it on wax...

Well Nor that is where we both feel the same way about both artists. I did not like the whole "Will Smith" thing and I looked at it as very bad for his legacy how his style never really grew and how extremely poppish Prince got. So the sameway you look at "Shake That Monkey" is the sameway I see "Gettin Jiggy Wit It". I see what you mean about the Gangstarr arguement and I should have mentioned take Guru solo's into account but the question was about Gangstarr alone because that is where Guru made the most noise and is most known for. Fresh Prince on the other hand had a very very successful career without Jeff so I figured we need to bring that into the equation.

I still think the discographies should be separate, but whatever. Not like everyone hasn't voted already anyway.

And I cosign Norf 100%. Damn right DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince is top 50! lol
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 8:52 am

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Al, seriously. Just because I don't think Will Smith is a "great songwriter" doesn't mean I've never heard one of his records, that's being facetitious. This isn't Biggie, this is Will SMITH, dude hasn't written his own rhymes in 20 years...

You are reading into my comments too much. You eluded that The Fresh Prince did NOT tell some "truly memorable stories". So I asked you, how closely have you listened to a DJJJ&TFP record? Because they are pretty freakin' memorable....especially the stories. It was no knock - but a serious question. Will wrote his own rhymes back on the DJJJ&TFP records. That's the era I'm talking about. And why bring up Biggie? What does he have anything to do with it?
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 9:35 am

Because he writes truly memorable stories. DJ JJ & FP come off as kitschy 20 years later, cats like Rakim, Slick Rick, Run DMC, Kool G Rap, Big Daddy Kane, etc. don't. Why is that?
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 9:55 am

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Because he writes truly memorable stories. DJ JJ & FP come off as kitschy 20 years later, cats like Rakim, Slick Rick, Run DMC, Kool G Rap, Big Daddy Kane, etc. don't. Why is that?

LOL - that's your opinion, but I completely disagree. This duo is top 50 to me. You damn right I think Fresh Prince writes just as memorable stories as these examples (if not more memorable in some cases). Just because you aren't feeling them or think they come off corny, does not mean they aren't memorable. You sure these guys are in your top 100?
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 10:05 am

Al...if you want a serious conversation, then let's have it, but I'm not going to sit here and let you be condscending because you're putting WILL FUCKING SMITH over artists like TECH N9NE. There are 5 other people that voted them NEITHER and I conceded top 100 for what they did for the culture, I just completely disagree that you could put Will Smith against some truly great storytellers because he talked about picking up underage girls and scray dreams (oooooh). You're REALLY going to compare that to Scarface's "Seen A Man Die"? REALLY?? Which do you think leaves a mark?
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 10:14 am

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Al...if you want a serious conversation, then let's have it, but I'm not going to sit here and let you be condscending because you're putting WILL FUCKING SMITH over artists like TECH N9NE. There are 5 other people that voted them NEITHER and I conceded top 100 for what they did for the culture, I just completely disagree that you could put Will Smith against some truly great storytellers because he talked about picking up underage girls and scray dreams (oooooh). You're REALLY going to compare that to Scarface's "Seen A Man Die"? REALLY?? Which do you think leaves a mark?

Now you're getting upset over nothing. An opinion.

So you're telling me "Summertime" hasn't left a "mark" on the culture? Or several of their other hits? I stand by my comments of Will Smith "telling truly memorable stories". If you can't see that, I don't see how you voted them top 100. Listen to one of their records today. Maybe it will refresh your memory.

Moreover, if you don't truly like DJJJ&TFP that much, you should probably have voted neither. Condescending? Talk about a serious conversation? Get off of that BS. You vote them in and then proceed to cut them up constantly. Honestly, I have no idea why you voted for them, because they don't seem to be your style of music at all. Comparing Tech N9Ne to Will Smith? Biggie? You are not comparing similar things. You're just telling me you don't dig the poppier stuff, and you like the darker stuff. I highly doubt this duo is anywhere near your PERSONAL top 100. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 10:49 am

Actually you are being condscending, you are making gross assumptions about my listening tastes based off a few comments where I was comparing style, flow, lyricisim, and storytelling ability (hence the Biggie and Tech N9ne comments, if a group of people do the same thing, they are comparable, all rappers are comparable). I already stated my criteria for this Top 100 thread and yet you act like you don't get it. I didn't "rip them up" I gave them props and then SOME PEOPLE acted like they were something they aren't and I stated my opinion. I never once said I didn't dig poppier stuff...jesus. This duo isn't in my personal top 500, but overall without my listening bias, I can see their place in hip hop's history, stop acting like you don't "get it".

I never said "Summertime" didn't leave a mark, but overall their material is rather juvenile and you're acting like it's not. There's a reason hip hop outgrew this, but it still can be dope and it still has it's place. All I'm saying is you don't have to make into something it's not. Dj Jazzy Jeff is clearly the reason this duo succeeded and you're acting like Will Smith is a top 50 mc on his own merit. You get so goddamn defensive when all I'm talking about is this one group and you're bringing my whole steez into the conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:04 am

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
I already stated my criteria for this Top 100 thread and yet you act like you don't get it.

I wrote this before you explained it. (you didn't respond to my replay though).

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
I never said "Summertime" didn't leave a mark, but overall their material is rather juvenile and you're acting like it's not.

Juvenile? What does that have to do with memorability. You cited examples of "better" stuff, just because the material was more serious. Hence my judgments. The judgments also come from what you call "objective" and "personal" and also comments I've heard from you over the past 1+ year. All that aside, I still disagree with your opinions on the group. But they are your opinions. You say I'm making them out to be something they are not, and I say you aren't giving them the credit they deserved. Case closed.

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Dj Jazzy Jeff is clearly the reason this duo succeeded and you're acting like Will Smith is a top 50 mc on his own merit.

I don't even know where you thought this up. I have no clue. I've been referring to Will as The Fresh Prince mostly, and stated that his first two albums were "guilty pleasures". So you're putting words in my mouth with that one. Nothing will top the duo's material. Moreover, I do think Will was an great songwriter & lyricist, which Jeff brought out of him best.

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
This duo isn't in my personal top 500, but overall without my listening bias, I can see their place in hip hop's history, stop acting like you don't "get it".

LOL - That's all I really needed to hear. How you can honestly place this duo in the top 100 while thinking that is beyond me. You may say you "get it", but I still disagree. Again...agree to disagree.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:18 am

See, again with the condescending bullshit. I refute all of your previous arguments about me "cutting them up after voting for them" and then you just come up with completely different ones like everything else you just said never happend and YOU STILL ACT LIKE I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. It's not about "agreeing to disagree", Al, it's about the personal respect that you would should some one that's showing it to you. Never once did I resort to personal insults or anything of the sort, and yet you keep throwing personal bias bullshit into the argument.

Here, I'll simplify it:

Do I like Beethoven? Not really. Will you catching bumping his concertos while I'm in my car, at a barbecue, or working out? No fucking chance. Is Ludwig Von one of the greatest to ever put notes on a staff? Hell motherfucking yes.

Get it yet?

You're the one not making any sense, if you feel GUILTY listening to their music you know it has faults, so ADMIT THEM. AGAIN, you're not being consistent with your arguments. You say duo this duo that blah blah blah but then say that Will Smith is this "great songwriter", I ask AGAIN what song did he arrange? What song had a bridge that he actually rapped on and had input in? Where is evidence of the man's songwriting ability? Where are these "great stories" he told? AGAIN, they're about picking up underage girls and scary dreams (spooky). Lyricist? Is that like a joke? Will couldn't beat Mike Tyson let alone Bow Wow. Where is the evidence of these grand polysyllabic rhyme schemes, punchlines, witty metaphors, grand wordplay, catchy hooks (since he is a great songwriter afterall), ETC ETC ETC. I don't really recall too many songs with Will's voice even on a chorus. You want less serious stuff that's better? How about Eminem? I'm pretty sure Biggie's "Playa Hata" wasn't exactly SERIOUS. Tech N9ne has some fun songs, how about "Bout Ta Bubble"?
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:29 am

I have no clue what you are rambling on about with that first paragraph...lol...if it seems like I don't understand your logic - I don't.

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
You're the one not making any sense, if you feel GUILTY listening to their music you know it has faults, so ADMIT THEM.

Will Smith's first two solos is what I was speaking of. All the DJJJ&TFP are gold IMO. "Code Red" isn't as good, but the others don't fall below 4.5 stars IMO. And even "Code Red" is 4 stars IMO.

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
You say duo this duo that blah blah blah but then say that Will Smith is this "great songwriter", I ask AGAIN what song did he arrange? What song had a bridge that he actually rapped on and had input in? Where is evidence of the man's songwriting ability? Where are these "great stories" he told? AGAIN, they're about picking up underage girls and scary dreams (spooky). Lyricist? Is that like a joke? Will couldn't beat Mike Tyson let alone Bow Wow. Where is the evidence of these grand polysyllabic rhyme schemes, punchlines, witty metaphors, grand wordplay, catchy hooks (since he is a great songwriter afterall), ETC ETC ETC.

If you have to ask all these questions, you obviously don't "get it". What song did he arrange? What song had a bridge that he actually rapped on and had input in? I don't know man. I wasn't in the studio with these guys back in the 80s...lmao! Where's the evidence of his songwriting ability (and all the other elements that you mention)? Check out "Rock The House", "He's The DJ, I'm The Rapper", "...And In This Corner", and "Homebase". All I'd "objectively" give 4.5+ stars to. Everything you're are asking for is on those records. Spin one, maybe you'll remember. I may seem condescending because this is a very silly question.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:32 am

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
Do I like Beethoven? Not really. Will you catching bumping his concertos while I'm in my car, at a barbecue, or working out? No fucking chance. Is Ludwig Von one of the greatest to ever put notes on a staff? Hell motherfucking yes.

Are you saying DJJJ&TFP is the Betthoven of hip-hop? I know what you are saying. Which is why I think folks should vote based on personal listening value instead of critical acclaim.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:33 am

are we still talking will smith? it's pretty obvious the people who are voting him top 50 are biased, people top 100 are nostalgic/respectful. let's move on.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 11:38 am

There isn't a song you listed that had all of those criteria. My point is that you refuse to concede all the points that I made.

Here's the simple fact, if you're making a serious statement, do I type "lol"? No, I don't. Do I make grandiose assumptions about the way you think? No, I don't. You're being condscending by acting AGAIN like Will Smith is a top 50 mc, objectively, when there are mcs who by very definition are better than him. Putting him with Jazzy Jeff they could be one of the greatest hip hop ACTS of all time, but you're not acting like that at all. You refuse to act like you can understand any of my points.

You say you're "still the same Al" but you're acting defensive, irrational, and paranoid and you refuse to concede that there is a basis for disagreeing with your points.
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 12:11 pm

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
There isn't a song you listed that had all of those criteria. My point is that you refuse to concede all the points that I made.

Why would I concede to "point" I don't agree with? Here are some songs to check out: Girls Ain't Nothing But Trouble, Rock the House, Here We Go Again, Brand New Funk, Time to Chill, Charlie Mack (1st out of the Limo), Parents Just Don't Understand, He's the D.J., I'm the Rapper, I Think I Can Beat Mike Tyson, Too Damn Hype, I'm All That, Summertime, The Things That U Do....need more?

You keep saying I make all these assumptions about their music, when it is clear to me you rarely listen to this duo, and I listen to them A LOT. Again, you are just making assumptions if you think I'm calling Will Smith - the solo artist - top 50. I never said it, but somehow you read it. In fact, I said from the very beginning that I felt this way about them as a duo. Why do you think I was arguing NOT to include his solo records? You are imagining things.

Lord Emperor N3R0N0N wrote:
You say you're "still the same Al" but you're acting defensive, irrational, and paranoid and you refuse to concede that there is a basis for disagreeing with your points.

Me? Look at yourself homey
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PostSubject: Re: 100 Greastest Nominee Day 37   Wed 27 May 2009, 12:25 pm

Clearly I meant that you thought of Will Smith as Fresh Prince (I can't believe I have to make a distinction) as a top 50 mc based on your praise of him, and I think that if you objectively compare him to almost ANY current relevant mc he fails to measure up, even against his peers in the 80's. It's not about serious or whatever, it's about rapping. If Kool G Rap rapped in that style about happy times, he'd still be dope and better than Will Smith.

A reasonable person should be to concede points that can't refute or can agree that it is reasonable for another reasonable person to agree with. You are unwilling to do so.

I was not being defensive until you start "lol"ing valid points that you don't refute. I'm not being irrational, you're acting as though my thought process has no merit and then in another thread you agree that it's possible to vote this way. MY THOUGHT PROCESS: If we all vote for who we think is dope instead of who we like we have a consensus amongst us. OTHERWISE we're getting Big Jess, Haystak, ICP, etc etc etc and we're getting nowhere. Makes perfect sense...jesus christ.

I stated my opinion then you had to freak out like what I'm saying made no sense and I thought "fine, if you wanna get into it, here we go".

The fact that you're arguing to "ignore" parts of his catalogue shows bias in itself.



But I'm done here Al.
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