Biggie Smalls--The most overrated entertainer ever.

KRob86 wrote:

So when you hear Canibus and Pharoah lyrics compared to Rakim lyrics; not flow, not voice, not beats, not delivery, str8 lyrics. You cannot see the BIG as advancement lyrically between them and him?

For his day and era of exposure could he have been considered a lyrical genius? ...I can see that. But that means BDK, KRS, and G Rap were also..right?

I don't see much of an advancement at all. you're basically saying Rakim is an analog mc, and we're in a digital age. If there have been advancements, why are there virtually no mc's rhyming like Rakim?

BDK and G Rap could be considered lyrical genius. I personally think of G Rap as more of a lyrical genius than BDK, but overall BDK is probably the more complete package. I wouldn't consider KRS a lyrical genius. His rhymes are pretty basic IMO. It's his other intangibles that make him great.

Rakim is way better than Monch and Canibus. Kev you're a cool cat and all, but you're fighting a losing battle on this one.

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

So when you hear Canibus and Pharoah lyrics compared to Rakim lyrics; not flow, not voice, not beats, not delivery, str8 lyrics. You cannot see the BIG as advancement lyrically between them and him?

For his day and era of exposure could he have been considered a lyrical genius? ...I can see that. But that means BDK, KRS, and G Rap were also..right?

I don't see much of an advancement at all. you're basically saying Rakim is an analog mc, and we're in a digital age. If there have been advancements, why are there virtually no mc's rhyming like Rakim?

BDK and G Rap could be considered lyrical genius. I personally think of G Rap as more of a lyrical genius than BDK, but overall BDK is probably the more complete package. I wouldn't consider KRS a lyrical genius. His rhymes are pretty basic IMO. It's his other intangibles that make him great.

Terry you must be deaf, blind or ???. Show me a Rakim verse on the level of just Pharoahes verse for Stress? Or Canibus verse from The Beast From The East?

Lets take the first few bars of Move THe Crowd:

Standing by the speaker, suddenly i had this Fever,
was it me or either summer madness
Cuz i just can't stand around
So i get closer and the closer i get, the better it sound
My mind starts to activate, rhymes collaborate
Cuz when i heard the beat, i just had to make
Something from the top of my head
So i fell into the groove of the wax and i said
How could i move the crowd

Now take this verse from Andre 3000:

My mind warps and bends floats the wind count to ten
Meet the twin Andre Ben, welcome to the lion's den
Original skin many men comprehend
I extend myself so you go out and tell a friend
Sin all depends on what you believing in
Faith is what you make it that's the hardest shit since MC Ren
Alien can blend right on in wit' yo' kin
Look again 'cause I swear I spot one every now and then
It's happenin' again
Wish I could tell you when
Andre this is Andre y'all
Just gon' have to make amends

Now if you read those lyrics and never heard neithers vice or flow, honestly who would you call a lyrcial genius? You don't see the advancement?

KJ Styles wrote:

Rakim is way better than Monch and Canibus. Kev you're a cool cat and all, but you're fighting a losing battle on this one.

So if they battled you do not think lyrically the crowd will go with Pharoahe and Canibus? I mean come on people.

Microphone Fiend SLAUGHTERS that verse from Dre

KRob86 wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

Rakim is way better than Monch and Canibus. Kev you're a cool cat and all, but you're fighting a losing battle on this one.

So if they battled you do not think lyrically the crowd will go with Pharoahe and Canibus? I mean come people.

Canibus isn't the MC he used to be. But even in his prime, he's never been the complete MC that Rakim is. And Monch wouldn't stand a chance in hell.

So....

Standing by this speaker, suddenly I had this fever

is more lyrical than

Original skin many men comprehend I extend myself so you go out and tell a friend

Really?

Lets take some lines from Lyrics Of Fury:

I'm rated 'R', this is a warning, ya better void
Poets are paranoid, DJ's destroyed
'Cuz I came back to attack others in spite
Strike like lightnin', it's quite frightenin'

He strikes like lightnin and its quite frighenin? Lyrical? Yes. Genius? really?

Face wrote a line that goes:

I read the book of revelations, and now I realize were in revelations
so on that note I make this statement
For all the young guns to become one and die young
Because this wold is filled with hatered, the balme is to be aimed at our sons.

Now that to me can be seen as lyrical genius. Rakim has had moments of genius in his written just like most emcess but he is not a consistant lyrical genius. And imo a genius never loses their smarts so a lyrical genuis should remain that way forever right?

So with that theory applied to the rappers I am about to list these imo are the some who can be considered true lyrical genius:

Pharoahe
Killah priest
Pac
KRino
Common
Face
Nas
Jay-Z

Good day!

In their prime Canibus and Monch would murder Rakim... and I agree with K. Rob - Rakim is just not all that lyrical - his concepts are basic... for his time he was the shit... compared to Dre - he doesn't... Dre blows him out of the water.

Gza is another lyrical genius

KRob86 wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

So when you hear Canibus and Pharoah lyrics compared to Rakim lyrics; not flow, not voice, not beats, not delivery, str8 lyrics. You cannot see the BIG as advancement lyrically between them and him?

For his day and era of exposure could he have been considered a lyrical genius? ...I can see that. But that means BDK, KRS, and G Rap were also..right?

I don't see much of an advancement at all. you're basically saying Rakim is an analog mc, and we're in a digital age. If there have been advancements, why are there virtually no mc's rhyming like Rakim?

BDK and G Rap could be considered lyrical genius. I personally think of G Rap as more of a lyrical genius than BDK, but overall BDK is probably the more complete package. I wouldn't consider KRS a lyrical genius. His rhymes are pretty basic IMO. It's his other intangibles that make him great.

Terry you must be deaf, blind or ???. Show me a Rakim verse on the level of just Pharoahes verse for Stress? Or Canibus verse from The Beast From The East?

Lets take the first few bars of Move THe Crowd:

Standing by the speaker, suddenly i had this Fever,
was it me or either summer madness
Cuz i just can't stand around
So i get closer and the closer i get, the better it sound
My mind starts to activate, rhymes collaborate
Cuz when i heard the beat, i just had to make
Something from the top of my head
So i fell into the groove of the wax and i said
How could i move the crowd

Now take this verse from Andre 3000:

My mind warps and bends floats the wind count to ten
Meet the twin Andre Ben, welcome to the lion's den
Original skin many men comprehend
I extend myself so you go out and tell a friend
Sin all depends on what you believing in
Faith is what you make it that's the hardest shit since MC Ren
Alien can blend right on in wit' yo' kin
Look again 'cause I swear I spot one every now and then
It's happenin' again
Wish I could tell you when
Andre this is Andre y'all
Just gon' have to make amends

Now if you read those lyrics and never heard neithers vice or flow, honestly who would you call a lyrcial genius? You don't see the advancement?

Let's see here. Powell, Slang, Trotter, Norf, Kj, and myself all see the genius of Rakim, but i'm the one who is blind. Sorry buddy you're just wrong on this one. Andre's verse is no more lyrical than what Rakim was doing back then. it may be on par and you may like it better(which i do too), but there isn't any real advancement.

Now that's just bullshit and you know it terry.

It may only be a conceptual difference - but Andre's manner of delivering his lyrics is very different from Rakim's.

Rakim was just straight forward observing and talking trash - Dre presented his ideas in a much different manner... which you feel is better comes down to a matter of preference, but Dre's presentation of his ideas is much more advanced than Rakim's

Lionel Hutz wrote:

Now that's just bullshit and you know it terry.

It may only be a conceptual difference - but Andre's manner of delivering his lyrics is very different from Rakim's.

Rakim was just straight forward observing and talking trash - Dre presented his ideas in a much different manner... which you feel is better comes down to a matter of preference, but Dre's presentation of his ideas is much more advanced than Rakim's

Oh, i'd definitely agree with that. There is nothing deep or intelligent to Rakim's music, and i'd take Andre over Rakim any day, and it's not even close. but bar for bar there is no more complexity now than there was when Rakim was dropping Paid in Full.

They wanna know how many rhymes have I ripped in rep., but
Researchers never found all the pieces yet
Scientists try to solve the context
Philosophers are wondering what's next
Pieces are took to last who observe them
They couldn't absorb them, they didn't deserve them
My ideas are only for the audience's ears
For my opponents, it might take years
Pencils and pens, are swords
Letters put together form a key to chords
I'm also a sculpture, born with structure
Because of my culture, I'm a rip and destruct the
Difficult styles that'll be for the technology
Complete sights and new heights after I get deep
You don't have to speak just seek
And peep the technique

Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme....and that's not even his best shit. You're trying to tell me that shit wasn't intelligent or complex? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit!

I'll agree that Andre's delivery is different from Rakim's. But line for line he's not fuckin with him AT ALL.

Pedro, you don't like very many East Coast MC's that rhymed before the mid-90's so I expect you to say some bullshit like that, but I'm disappointed in you Kev. But it's whatever. If you poll a million hip-hop fans over the age of 25, I guaran-damn-tee that the vast majority of them is gonna recognize Rakim at or near the top of the lyrical GOAT list. It's just like everybody doesn't think Jordan is the best b-ball player of all time, but 95% or better of sports fans do.

And Terry, while I don't agree with you saying that Rakim's music isn't deep or intelligent (I just smashed that theory above) It's good that you at least realize he's a lyrical genius.

T. Myers wrote:

Lionel Hutz wrote:

Now that's just bullshit and you know it terry.

It may only be a conceptual difference - but Andre's manner of delivering his lyrics is very different from Rakim's.

Rakim was just straight forward observing and talking trash - Dre presented his ideas in a much different manner... which you feel is better comes down to a matter of preference, but Dre's presentation of his ideas is much more advanced than Rakim's

Oh, i'd definitely agree with that. There is nothing deep or intelligent to Rakim's music, and i'd take Andre over Rakim any day, and it's not even close. but bar for bar there is no more complexity now than there was when Rakim was dropping Paid in Full.

I'll give you that - bar for bar - there is nothing different from the way both are delivering their lyrics.


I guess what it comes down to is what makes an emcee "lyrical?" I always considering Rakim's main contribution to be rhyme structure and flow - with his multi-syllable rhyme scheme.

I think many people equate that with lyrical skill - which to a degree I can see - but I think others seem to mix in other factors with what makes an emcee "lyrical" - which in this case would be what they say, how they say it, how they deliver it, etc. - it can come down to preference - but at the same time I think there is something much more lyrical about some one presenting an idea through an analogy or symbolism than just out right saying what they meant...

KJ Styles wrote:

They wanna know how many rhymes have I ripped in rep., but
Researchers never found all the pieces yet
Scientists try to solve the context
Philosophers are wondering what's next
Pieces are took to last who observe them
They couldn't absorb them, they didn't deserve them
My ideas are only for the audience's ears
For my opponents, it might take years
Pencils and pens, are swords
Letters put together form a key to chords
I'm also a sculpture, born with structure
Because of my culture, I'm a rip and destruct the
Difficult styles that'll be for the technology
Complete sights and new heights after I get deep
You don't have to speak just seek
And peep the technique

Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme....and that's not even his best shit. You're trying to tell me that shit wasn't intelligent or complex? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit!

I'll agree that Andre's delivery is different from Rakim's. But line for line he's not fuckin with him AT ALL.

Pedro, you don't like very many East Coast MC's that rhymed before the mid-90's so I expect you to say some bullshit like that, but I'm disappointed in you Kev. But it's whatever. If you poll a million hip-hop fans over the age of 25, I guaran-damn-tee that the vast majority of them is gonna recognize Rakim at or near the top of the lyrical GOAT list. It's just like everybody doesn't think Jordan is the best b-ball player of all time, but 95% or better of sports fans do.

And Terry, while I don't agree with you saying that Rakim's music isn't deep or intelligent (I just smashed that theory above) It's good that you at least realize he's a lyrical genius.

That's a dope verse, and it is lyrical, but it is still just a dope battle verse... to me a true lyrical genius extends beyond that -and I'm not saying Rakim doesn't do that, because he has at times, but to me he simply is not fucking with some of the people that came after him. I don't think you really want us to start quoting monch...

KJ, one song doesn't make Rakim KRS One's equal. The ratio of his braggadocia, slick talk type of shit compared to his introspective type stuff is way out of balance. The vast majority of his rhymes are superficial at best. There's nothing wrong with that, but i expect more from an artist for me to consider them a favorite of mine.

Lionel Hutz wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

They wanna know how many rhymes have I ripped in rep., but
Researchers never found all the pieces yet
Scientists try to solve the context
Philosophers are wondering what's next
Pieces are took to last who observe them
They couldn't absorb them, they didn't deserve them
My ideas are only for the audience's ears
For my opponents, it might take years
Pencils and pens, are swords
Letters put together form a key to chords
I'm also a sculpture, born with structure
Because of my culture, I'm a rip and destruct the
Difficult styles that'll be for the technology
Complete sights and new heights after I get deep
You don't have to speak just seek
And peep the technique

Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme....and that's not even his best shit. You're trying to tell me that shit wasn't intelligent or complex? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit!

I'll agree that Andre's delivery is different from Rakim's. But line for line he's not fuckin with him AT ALL.

Pedro, you don't like very many East Coast MC's that rhymed before the mid-90's so I expect you to say some bullshit like that, but I'm disappointed in you Kev. But it's whatever. If you poll a million hip-hop fans over the age of 25, I guaran-damn-tee that the vast majority of them is gonna recognize Rakim at or near the top of the lyrical GOAT list. It's just like everybody doesn't think Jordan is the best b-ball player of all time, but 95% or better of sports fans do.

And Terry, while I don't agree with you saying that Rakim's music isn't deep or intelligent (I just smashed that theory above) It's good that you at least realize he's a lyrical genius.

That's a dope verse, and it is lyrical, but it is still just a dope battle verse... to me a true lyrical genius extends beyond that -and I'm not saying Rakim doesn't do that, because he has at times, but to me he simply is not fucking with some of the people that came after him. I don't think you really want us to start quoting monch...

Maybe not TO YOU.....but to everyone else besides you and Kev he's a genius. I've been following Monch since he came out with Prince Poetry. He's dope without a doubt, but there's at least 20 MC's better than him line for line.

Lionel Hutz wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

Lionel Hutz wrote:

Now that's just bullshit and you know it terry.

It may only be a conceptual difference - but Andre's manner of delivering his lyrics is very different from Rakim's.

Rakim was just straight forward observing and talking trash - Dre presented his ideas in a much different manner... which you feel is better comes down to a matter of preference, but Dre's presentation of his ideas is much more advanced than Rakim's

Oh, i'd definitely agree with that. There is nothing deep or intelligent to Rakim's music, and i'd take Andre over Rakim any day, and it's not even close. but bar for bar there is no more complexity now than there was when Rakim was dropping Paid in Full.

I'll give you that - bar for bar - there is nothing different from the way both are delivering their lyrics.


I guess what it comes down to is what makes an emcee "lyrical?" I always considering Rakim's main contribution to be rhyme structure and flow - with his multi-syllable rhyme scheme.

I think many people equate that with lyrical skill - which to a degree I can see - but I think others seem to mix in other factors with what makes an emcee "lyrical" - which in this case would be what they say, how they say it, how they deliver it, etc. - it can come down to preference - but at the same time I think there is something much more lyrical about some one presenting an idea through an analogy or symbolism than just out right saying what they meant...

Yeah, for the most part i equate the rhyme structure and his rhyme schemes to his being a lyrical genius, and there hasn't been any real advancement in that structure. People have added more substance to those rhyme schemes, but the rhyme schemes are essentially the same. That's why i love dudes like Dre and Monch so much cause you get those Rakim-esque rhyme patterns and so much more. The problem is i don't equate the "so much more" part with lyricism. If others do, then so be it.

"Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme...."

And you call other people bias against ish? Ha!

T. Myers wrote:

KJ, one song doesn't make Rakim KRS One's equal. The ratio of his braggadocia, slick talk type of shit compared to his introspective type stuff is way out of balance. The vast majority of his rhymes are superficial at best. There's nothing wrong with that, but i expect more from an artist for me to consider them a favorite of mine.

The thing is Terry, that Rakim and KRS are two different type of MC's. Rakim is more into wordplay and KRS is more into deep subject matter. Both are in my Top 5 but I prefer Rakim by a hair.

Rakim started to dig into subject matter on his albums starting with Let The Rhythm Hit Em on down. It's funny how you criticize him for being superficial, yet you're a mark for guys like Young Buck and BG, who aren't very lyrical and COMPLETELY superficial. All they talk about is money, material things, and bitches.

Shaun wrote:

"Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme...."

And you call other people bias against ish? Ha!

It's just an opinion Shaun. I am a fan of Three Stacks, Canibus, and Monch (Three Stacks is among my Top 20 of all time) but IMO none of them is touching Rakim line for line.

It's one thing to prefer those guys over Rakim, but it's another to say that Rakim isn't a lyrical genius. That's complete and total BULLSHIT!

KJ Styles wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KJ, one song doesn't make Rakim KRS One's equal. The ratio of his braggadocia, slick talk type of shit compared to his introspective type stuff is way out of balance. The vast majority of his rhymes are superficial at best. There's nothing wrong with that, but i expect more from an artist for me to consider them a favorite of mine.

The thing is Terry, that Rakim and KRS are two different type of MC's. Rakim is more into wordplay and KRS is more into deep subject matter. Both are among my favs but I prefer Rakim by a hair.

Rakim started to dig into subject matter on his albums starting with Let The Rhythm Hit Em on down. It's funny how you criticize him for being superficial, yet you're a mark for guys like Young Buck and BG, who aren't very lyrical and COMPLETELY superficial. All they talk about is money, material things, and bitches.

I agree that they are two different types of mc's, and Rakim is easily the more lyrical of the two. However, there is a reason KRS is called the T'cha, and that is why i love him more. It's like food for my soul.

KJ, i like Rakim, but he's in the same boat as Young Buck and BG as far as being superficial. The reason Rakim is brought up is because the bigger they are the harder they will fall. It doesn't get any bigger than Rakim. Obviously Rakim is killing both of them lyrically, but they are still in the same boat as far as none of them being among my all time favorites cause they are somewhat one dimensional.

KJ Styles wrote:

Lionel Hutz wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

They wanna know how many rhymes have I ripped in rep., but
Researchers never found all the pieces yet
Scientists try to solve the context
Philosophers are wondering what's next
Pieces are took to last who observe them
They couldn't absorb them, they didn't deserve them
My ideas are only for the audience's ears
For my opponents, it might take years
Pencils and pens, are swords
Letters put together form a key to chords
I'm also a sculpture, born with structure
Because of my culture, I'm a rip and destruct the
Difficult styles that'll be for the technology
Complete sights and new heights after I get deep
You don't have to speak just seek
And peep the technique

Now THAT SHIT is lyrical GENIUS! Nothing that Three Stacks, Canibus, or Monch ever spit is as dope as that rhyme....and that's not even his best shit. You're trying to tell me that shit wasn't intelligent or complex? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit!

I'll agree that Andre's delivery is different from Rakim's. But line for line he's not fuckin with him AT ALL.

Pedro, you don't like very many East Coast MC's that rhymed before the mid-90's so I expect you to say some bullshit like that, but I'm disappointed in you Kev. But it's whatever. If you poll a million hip-hop fans over the age of 25, I guaran-damn-tee that the vast majority of them is gonna recognize Rakim at or near the top of the lyrical GOAT list. It's just like everybody doesn't think Jordan is the best b-ball player of all time, but 95% or better of sports fans do.

And Terry, while I don't agree with you saying that Rakim's music isn't deep or intelligent (I just smashed that theory above) It's good that you at least realize he's a lyrical genius.

That's a dope verse, and it is lyrical, but it is still just a dope battle verse... to me a true lyrical genius extends beyond that -and I'm not saying Rakim doesn't do that, because he has at times, but to me he simply is not fucking with some of the people that came after him. I don't think you really want us to start quoting monch...

Maybe not TO YOU.....but to everyone else besides you and Kev he's a genius. I've been following Monch since he came out with Prince Poetry. He's dope without a doubt, but there's at least 20 MC's better than him line for line.

As you look from whenceforth I come; riding the wind
thus eliminating competition from bird's eye view I'm
descending in helicopters in a village raid
Flesh will burn when exposed to the poetical germ grenade
I'm highly intoxicating your mind when I'm operating
on cell wars to membranes cytoplasms to protoplasms
Disintegrate em eliminate em now no one has em in battle
I display a nuclear ray that'll, destroy bone marrow in cattle
Thereby destroying the entire food supply
that's crawling with AIDS, maggots, flies
It's ironic, when a demonic, government
utilizes bionics and a six million dollar man to capture me
Clever, however; you could never ever begin to apprehend a hologram
Who's determined to fight solely, to defend in wars a land of the holy
I threw I-raq/a-rock and I-ran/I-ran
cause I couldn't stand anymore within the depths of the sand
So don't ask me Hu-ssein/who-sane
cause the hypnotical gases are eating my brain

you mean to tell me there are 20 mc's better than the dude who spit that? I just do not see it at all.

Indeed. Anyways, I guess it's time to give my perspective:

Rakim revolutionized rhyming and all that. But to me, he didn't get lyrical (basically at all) until his second or third album. He used a different rhyme scheme, and multis and whatnot, but he never really used any dope metaphors, alliteration, imagery, etc. All of that is what I look for to call someone lyrical.

"but at the same time I think there is something much more lyrical about some one presenting an idea through an analogy or symbolism than just out right saying what they meant..."

Indeed.

T. Myers wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KJ, one song doesn't make Rakim KRS One's equal. The ratio of his braggadocia, slick talk type of shit compared to his introspective type stuff is way out of balance. The vast majority of his rhymes are superficial at best. There's nothing wrong with that, but i expect more from an artist for me to consider them a favorite of mine.

The thing is Terry, that Rakim and KRS are two different type of MC's. Rakim is more into wordplay and KRS is more into deep subject matter. Both are among my favs but I prefer Rakim by a hair.

Rakim started to dig into subject matter on his albums starting with Let The Rhythm Hit Em on down. It's funny how you criticize him for being superficial, yet you're a mark for guys like Young Buck and BG, who aren't very lyrical and COMPLETELY superficial. All they talk about is money, material things, and bitches.

I agree that they are two different types of mc's, and Rakim is easily the more lyrical of the two. However, there is a reason KRS is called the T'cha, and that is why i love him more. It's like food for my soul.

KJ, i like Rakim, but he's in the same boat as Young Buck and BG as far as being superficial. The reason Rakim is brought up is because the bigger they are the harder they will fall. It doesn't get any bigger than Rakim. Obviously Rakim is killing both of them lyrically, but they are still in the same boat as far as none of them being among my all time favorites cause they are somewhat one dimensional.

I feel you on KRS, He's my 4th fav MC of all time because of his deep subject matter and strong discog. But Rakim is 3rd to me because of his rhyme structure and the way he puts words together. You should spin Let The Rhythm Hit Em, Don't Sweat The Technique, and The 18th Letter again sometime. Those albums contain quite a bit of subject matter.

Shaun wrote:

Indeed. Anyways, I guess it's time to give my perspective:

Rakim revolutionized rhyming and all that. But to me, he didn't get lyrical (basically at all) until his second or third album. He used a different rhyme scheme, and multis and whatnot, but he never really used any dope metaphors, alliteration, imagery, etc. All of that is what I look for to call someone lyrical.

"but at the same time I think there is something much more lyrical about some one presenting an idea through an analogy or symbolism than just out right saying what they meant..."

Indeed.

So My Melody, Paid In Full, and I Ain't No Joke aren't lyrical? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit.

Shaun wrote:

Indeed. Anyways, I guess it's time to give my perspective:

Rakim revolutionized rhyming and all that. But to me, he didn't get lyrical (basically at all) until his second or third album. He used a different rhyme scheme, and multis and whatnot, but he never really used any dope metaphors, alliteration, imagery, etc. All of that is what I look for to call someone lyrical.

"but at the same time I think there is something much more lyrical about some one presenting an idea through an analogy or symbolism than just out right saying what they meant..."

Indeed.

I agree. There are a lot of much more intelligent mc's with thought provoking lyrics, and that's what makes them better to me.

Ghost is another very underrated lyricist, the subliminals he uses in his rhymes is unparallelled

"So My Melody, Paid In Full, and I Ain't No Joke aren't lyrical? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit."

So... I take it you didn't read MY way of calling an emcee lyrical? For, if you did, you would see that the answer to your question is, no, not really. To me.

Shaun wrote:

"So My Melody, Paid In Full, and I Ain't No Joke aren't lyrical? C'Mon Son, GTFOH with that bullshit."

So... I take it you didn't read MY way of calling an emcee lyrical? For, if you did, you would see that the answer to your question is, no, not really. To me.

I read it, and I still say C'Mon Son.

He did use dope vocab and metaphors in those songs. He did virtually the entire Paid In Full album, but those three tracks especially. Spin that album again sometime and you'll see what I mean.

Yeah the majority of Rakim's tracks were about himself (although he did start dippin into deep subject matter from Let The Rhythm Hit Em on down) but NOBODY in the history of the game talked about themself better than him.

There's a reason why Rakim is the most quoted MC of all time, it's because he's a genius.

Thinking about it, now, you can take I Ain't No Joke and My Melody off of that list. But Paid Is Full is possibly the simplest song (lyrically) on that album. All that aside, I think we can both agree that Ra was much more lyrical on his later albums?

Shaun wrote:

Thinking about it, now, you can take I Ain't No Joke and My Melody off of that list. But Paid Is Full is possibly the simplest song (lyrically) on that album. All that aside, I think we can both agree that Ra was much more lyrical on his later albums?

His cadence was the slowest on the title track, but I wouldn't say the song is simple lyrically. He pretty much invented the term "Dead Presidents".

As for the second point you made, I can see why someone would think that, but it's debatable. Personally, I like Paid In Full the most out of all his albums. but Follow The Leader and Let The Rhythm Hit Em are also classics and Don't Sweat The Technique is a near classic.

BTW, my favorite Rakim song is Eric B Is President. So many dope lines from that song, that and the beat are simply amazing!

So Terry that verse you just posted from Pharoahe is not more lyrical than anything Rakim has ever written?

And Shuan and SRP hit the nail on its fucking head. I do not get style and rhyme pattern mixed up with lyrical ability. I think that is where some of us are clashing due to our different views on what lyrical is.

Powell, I agree with that Madonna shit! She practically fucked any entertainer that she could get a hold of who was hot at the time.

KRob86 wrote:

So Terry that verse you just posted from Pharoahe is not more lyrical than anything Rakim has ever written?

And Shuan and SRP hit the nail on its fucking head. I do not get style and rhyme pattern mixed up with lyrical ability. I think that is where some of us are clashing due to our different views on what lyrical is.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's more lyrical. It's more creative and intelligent, and i obviously prefer it to most if not all Rakim verses.

KRob86 wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

So when you hear Canibus and Pharoah lyrics compared to Rakim lyrics; not flow, not voice, not beats, not delivery, str8 lyrics. You cannot see the BIG as advancement lyrically between them and him?

For his day and era of exposure could he have been considered a lyrical genius? ...I can see that. But that means BDK, KRS, and G Rap were also..right?

I don't see much of an advancement at all. you're basically saying Rakim is an analog mc, and we're in a digital age. If there have been advancements, why are there virtually no mc's rhyming like Rakim?

BDK and G Rap could be considered lyrical genius. I personally think of G Rap as more of a lyrical genius than BDK, but overall BDK is probably the more complete package. I wouldn't consider KRS a lyrical genius. His rhymes are pretty basic IMO. It's his other intangibles that make him great.

Terry you must be deaf, blind or ???. Show me a Rakim verse on the level of just Pharoahes verse for Stress? Or Canibus verse from The Beast From The East?

Lets take the first few bars of Move THe Crowd:

Standing by the speaker, suddenly i had this Fever,
was it me or either summer madness
Cuz i just can't stand around
So i get closer and the closer i get, the better it sound
My mind starts to activate, rhymes collaborate
Cuz when i heard the beat, i just had to make
Something from the top of my head
So i fell into the groove of the wax and i said
How could i move the crowd

Now take this verse from Andre 3000:

My mind warps and bends floats the wind count to ten
Meet the twin Andre Ben, welcome to the lion's den
Original skin many men comprehend
I extend myself so you go out and tell a friend
Sin all depends on what you believing in
Faith is what you make it that's the hardest shit since MC Ren
Alien can blend right on in wit' yo' kin
Look again 'cause I swear I spot one every now and then
It's happenin' again
Wish I could tell you when
Andre this is Andre y'all
Just gon' have to make amends

Now if you read those lyrics and never heard neithers vice or flow, honestly who would you call a lyrcial genius? You don't see the advancement?

LMAOOOO :face: :face: :face:


Ummm Kev not seeing the major difference between those HORRIBLE examples man

everybody knows that 3 stacks is extremely nasty(he's number 11 on my GOAT list) on the mic but IN MY OPINION Rakim would slaughter his ass...hang him up like a piece of slab bacon my dude...that space shit won't work against Rakim Allah.....lol...seriously man...what are you saying right here man??

Lionel Hutz wrote:

In their prime Canibus and Monch would murder Rakim... and I agree with K. Rob - Rakim is just not all that lyrical - his concepts are basic... for his time he was the shit... compared to Dre - he doesn't... Dre blows him out of the water.

SRP your GOAT is Nickatina man...so what do you honestly know about LYRICAL emcees?? I mean come on man...you dudes are some funny motherfuckers!

for that last comment Canibus himself would kick you in your head..lol...Rakim is the truth...Monch is a very good emcee...very lyrical...Canibus is also very good...very lyrical and they both would suck Rakim's dick if they could...REAL TALK.....hey it's all good..heads will always question THE BEST...that's the way it's been since BC times and that's the way it's going to always be!

"As for the second point you made, I can see why someone would think that, but it's debatable. Personally, I like Paid In Full the most out of all his albums. but Follow The Leader and Let The Rhythm Hit Em are also classics and Don't Sweat The Technique is a near classic.

BTW, my favorite Rakim song is Eric B Is President. So many dope lines from that song, that and the beat are simply amazing!"

I agree with all of this. I didn't say his post Paid In Full albums were the best, they were just more lyrical, IMO.

This thread needs to die.....

I think this thread is good. Why would it need to die when we're having good debates? And no one is throwing personal shots at each other. We need more threads like this.

Shaun wrote:

I think this thread is good. Why would it need to die when we're having good debates? And no one is throwing personal shots at each other. We need more threads like this.

co-sign!!! This is how the forum should be. great debate without the hate.