Hip Hop Questionaire

I know all of that, Norf.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative, because I don't count NWA for Dre, and I don't count Wu Tang for Rza.

But here's where you get the facts twisted, Wu Tang SHOPPED to MULTIPLE labels before finally getting signed to Loud because they wanted to be able to sign solo deals with whatever label they wanted, and very few labels would even consider that, let alone with the type of music they wanted to release. Therefore, Rza was in NO POSITION to "put anyone on" if they couldn't even get a deal. Rza doing a wack ass solo album and putting out the All In Together Now doesn't mean dude was "on", let alone in a position of power.

And regardless of whether or not you count Wu, I'd put the Dogg Pound, Snoop, DOC, Eminem, etc etc etc above the original Wu.

N3R0N0N Of 0nslaught3r wrote:

I know all of that, Norf.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative, because I don't count NWA for Dre, and I don't count Wu Tang for Rza.

But here's where you get the facts twisted, Wu Tang SHOPPED to MULTIPLE labels before finally getting signed to Loud because they wanted to be able to sign solo deals with whatever label they wanted, and very few labels would even consider that, let alone with the type of music they wanted to release. Therefore, Rza was in NO POSITION to "put anyone on" if they couldn't even get a deal. Rza doing a wack ass solo album and putting out the All In Together Now doesn't mean dude was "on", let alone in a position of power.

And regardless of whether or not you count Wu, I'd put the Dogg Pound, Snoop, DOC, Eminem, etc etc etc above the original Wu.

Now you're venturing into things I never even mentioned or brought up. Not sure how I'm twisting anything.

1) My original point was (and still is) that you don't hear these guys in their current forms without RZA. They've said so themselves and I've seen it (looking for the footage right now, actually).

2) RZA changed the way people approached making beats. That W is the symbol of a movement. RZA is a style of music on his own. The branches of the Wu tree cast a shadow that is much bigger than anything Dre has done for hip hop music. Sure, Dre has a lot of hits and a GOAT status, but he's not even in the same league as RZA. Which brings me to my next point...

3) Snoop, DOC, Eminem, whatever....It takes Dre a decade to do it...each rapper. (DOC = 80's...Snoop = 90's...Em = 99/Early 00's) RZA did it all within a span of 3 - 5 years. And...if ya wanna get technical, Dre only produced one Snoop album, one DOC album, and 1 1/2 Em albums. He has the NWA albums, but he didn't put those guys on. RZA not only produces every Wu album, but he produced every single Wu solo debut. That's at least 14 or 15 albums right there. Dre simply ain't fuckin' with that on a statistical level.

4) I was addressing everyone's claims that Dre had anything to do with putting Cube on. That simply didn't happen. He damn sure didn't put Eazy on. So, again, how does he get NWA credit when Eazy brought him in?

I'm gonna go spin Heavy Mental now...

This isn't about Rza as a producer, I don't think I could really choose who's "better" between Rza and Dre, although I prefer Dre's cleaner sound.

You're right about quantity, obviously Rza has that all up over Dre.

My only problem was that I still don't feel Rza put them on (and I don't think you really refuted my point about "putting some one on" when you're shopping your demo with those dudes on that demo...seems like he's just part of a group but you're entitled to your opinion).

And I AGREED with you that I don't think Dre put NWA on. I've said that multiple times. DRE DIDN'T PUT NWA ON. Cool? My point was that Dre was IN NWA and Rza was IN WU TANG so I don't see how either could be considered "putting them on" if both groups shopped demos with the producer in the group, not with the producer having a deal for them. I'm sure the Wu wouldn't be anywhere without Rza, but I also don't think that Goodie Mob woulda gone anywhere without Cee Lo, but I don't think Cee Lo "put them on". That's my only point Norf. Not trying to get you miffed, sir. And I understand that you're going to say "that's not the same thing" but it is to me. It's obviously a point of view thing but clearly I'm not the only person that feels the way I do.

lol...

Jeff, when I asked about Dre getting NWA credit, you responded the way you did, man.

The RZA stuff is something I've heard with my own two ears. I'm pretty firm on my stance there.

The people that give Dre that credit have yet to answer...

I responded the way I did because I don't feel Dre put NWA on or Rza put Wu on. I was saying that it's basically the same thing. Didn't mean to tip your wheelchair, my good man. This could have been much easier resolved on chat, but you're too good for chat nowadays.

???

Wu was three people...until he gave 6 more rappers the green light. I can't make it any more simple than that. They tell you what they were doing before RZA came along all throughout their music. It's pretty obvious.

Dre wasn't even the head of his particular group until Death Row...and even then he deferred to Suge...

Just sayin'. It's hardly the same thing.

I look at it as Rza was also in Gravediggaz working with Prince Paul trying to get a deal while Wu Tang was also trying to get off the ground. That looks like a struggling rapper, not some one signing new rappers left and right. Still not on chat, sir.

Again...not even remotely similar...or related.

I'm not on chat because I have to hit the gym in a few minutes...

Toe-mate-oh, toe-mot-oh, sir.

first of all your twisting Kev's original question. The question was DISCOVERING TALENT, thats not the same as "putting them on".

As Norf said Rza's group was him and GZA and ODB. He discovered the other 6 rappers and recruited them into his group. It doesnt matter if he had power or not at the time, he still discovered their talents and brought them into his group.

You're right, so by that definition the dude that Ghostface Killah first rapped in front of ever discovered him. Doesn't matter if dude had power to put him on a label or not, he heard him first right?

N3R0N0N Of 0nslaught3r wrote:

You're right, so by that definition the dude that Ghostface Killah first rapped in front of ever discovered him. Doesn't matter if dude had power to put him on a label or not, he heard him first right?

he discovered his talent, put him in his group, then showed the world the group, hence showing them all the members he brought together

if not for Rza, at least 3-4 members of the clan would not be rappers today, i almost guarantee that

Jeff, you're a Wu-hater so you're not gonna win this debate because your disdain for Wu-Tang won't allow you to be objective.

I don't hate the Wu, goddamn. Just like I don't hate Little Brother. I just think they're over-rated and people drool over everything they've done because they have some REALLY dope shit so their average to wack shit gets hella praise for no reason. Also, my definition of discovery is apparently different than everybody else's on the forum. The discovery thing really is just a matter of opinion and not that big of a deal.