Is Capitalism Necessary??

Americans have bought into the idea that in order to live, we need to turn a profit, or be a part of a system that turns a profit, resulting in obtaining cash so we can eat to live (or live to eat). Does America really need capitalism to survive?

I'm a socialist so don't ask me.

We don't need it to survive, but if we want to maximize our potential in nearly everything we do then it's necessary.

Honestly, I was thinking about having an alternate method. It could work mostly in small communities, or amongst friends. Here's what I had planned:

I have a few friends who have vegetable gardens, and I have one as well. Plus I have friends who have chickens, some are very handy and capable of providing various services such as roofing, fixing cars, basic handyman type stuff. If everybody got together and decided to trade goods/services for whatever they need, then something good could happen. For example, If I needed rice, and I have a friend who has a lot of potatoes, but has a surplus of rice, I could go to her house and trade potatoes for rice. Both parties get the food they need without going to the store. I know this won't work when it comes to paying the bills, but it will work so you can have more money available for stuff like that. You wouldn't have to go to the store as much, plus both families get food. It sounds very far fetched, but it could work.

Check out Chomsky on youtube. Capitalism is nothing more than well-veiled Feudalism. Dollar bill slavery. Possibly the largest device of this deception is the myth of class mobility.

Add Mills' "The Poweer Elite" to your book list.

That's ridiculous kid joe. you've got a head full of shit it seems.

Kid Joe might be right. What do we go to work for....to earn money. Why do we need to earn money...so we can pay bills, buy food, gas, etc. What happens if we don't have money? We end up homeless because we need money. What is money? It is receipt given by the federal reserve backed by nothing. Have you seen the Money Masters video, Ex? It's a long one but it can be found on Google Video, and can explain a lot about how money works.

Money is a trap. Of course, if you had a lot of money, you wouldn't think it was a trap, nor would you care. The majority of Americans work to live. That's what the slaves did. They had to work to live. Granted, their lives were shitty, so if they were lucky enough, they could buy their freedom. With the economy being the way it is right now, how many folks can buy theirs?
I'm not saying that we are being enslaved literally slavery was before, but slavery has definitely taken on another form. I'm referring to the form of credit. Credit card debt is killing folks in general. At the end of the month, how much money is being paid down on a balance that could be added to a savings account? I used to have credit card debt, and it used to kill me to see how much of that could have been added to my savings account. I could have had at least $7000.00 EASILY after all that if I wasn't paying down debt. Luckily, I got all of that paid off and I can start to save again. But the real kicker is that I'll never get that money back. True, I have a few nice things to show for it, but having those funds in the bank feels better to me than having some really nice items.

I haven't seen the movie but I understand how the fed works. I'm confused about why you don't like capitalism, and about your point of what happens when you don't work. Having a central bank creating artifical economic conditions isn't capitalism. We've had the federal reserve system in place since 1913. We've not had true, free market capitalism in this country for a long time now.

No. There have been a variety of systems. How well they've worked depends on someone perspective. I mean would a landowning Noble be against feudalism, probably not but maybe the peasants would. Did communism work in Russia? Depends if your needs were being met.

For any society to work you need consent and incentive. Pro-capitalism failure is it eventually incites blind greed. The only job of a pure capitalist is to make money. People operate this edict would be against labor laws because it disrupts their ability to exploit. It is partially what led to these shitty loans. Those in charge didn't plan on being their when the shit hit the fan. A pure capitalist employee has no loyalty nor does a pure capitalist company. Your kept as long as useful. Those who made profit off these shitty loans don't have to give back the money. Companies work hard to eliminate things that benefit employees for the sake of profit. I have no loyalty towards entities I don't own or have a true stake in. I'm trying to get as much out of them for as little effort as possible. And they are trying to get as much work out of me for as little pay they can give me. People need to stop saying this is MY JOB. It's not your job. You don't own it. Profit motivation doesn't work for all people which is another reason capitalism isn't flawless.

Now onto socialism/communism. It's weakness is also incentive and consent. We all work, we all benefit. Sounds nice on paper. All labor is not valued the same and what about a person who lacks personal initiative? Let's say you don't feed them. This will not stop them from trying to eat. They will not consent to the social rules set before them. Let's say you arrest them for theft. Now you house them as a criminal. Others may resent working hard if they perceive the task the other guy is doing is less important.

The problem with any system you come up with his humanity and it usually has to do with consent and incentive.

"Did communism work in Russia? Depends if your needs were being met."

Communism failed the Soviet Union. Their system collapsed.


"The only job of a pure capitalist is to make money."

By effectively meeting the demands of consumers with their products and services. What's so bad about that? Everyone wins.

"By effectively meeting the demands of consumers with their products and services. What's so bad about that? Everyone wins."

Again, you are working under the notion they are scrupulous. If they get money to be unscrupulous they'll take that as well.

If they could getaway with sweatshops they would. It's why they outsource jobs to other countries fewer restrictions. Why pay for clean air in the factory when you can fire the sick and replace them with the desperate? Companies are entities that are loyal to themselves not the nation they reside in.

Bad Capitalism, giving no-check loans to people who can't afford them. Fluctuating interest rates on credit cards despite the fact the holder keeps up with their payments.

Venture capitalists backed Valiant Comics. When they saw it profitable they demanded more titles despite the fact quality control would drop due to minimal staff. They padded the numbers and sold it to Acclaim. Acclaim rewrote the concept of many of the titles alienating the fans. Acclaim eventually folded the comic division to focus purely on video games after losing their Sporting Licensing. How did the readership benefit? They watched their favorite books get horribly altered and eventually go out of print. But I'm sure somebody made money.

"If they could getaway with sweatshops they would. It's why they outsource jobs to other countries fewer restrictions. Why pay for clean air in the factory when you can fire the sick and replace them with the desperate? Companies are entities that are loyal to themselves not the nation they reside in."


Are the people who buy the products these companies supply free of any blame? I don't think so. If you don't like a companies business practices then don't buy their products, support a company who engages in practices more to your liking.


"Bad Capitalism, giving no-check loans to people who can't afford them. Fluctuating interest rates on credit cards despite the fact the holder keeps up with their payments."

Nobody is forced to do business with these credit card companies, but if you do, and you enter into a contract with them both parties are responsible for following that contract to the letter. If they're charging you higher interest than what the contract specifies, then and only then should the government get involved and put a stop to that. The free market doesn't mean you can defraud people. This only works if you you have a sound currency which we don't and need to change.


"Venture capitalists backed Valiant Comics. When they saw it profitable they demanded more titles despite the fact quality control would drop due to minimal staff. They padded the numbers and sold it to Acclaim. Acclaim rewrote the concept of many of the titles alienating the fans. Acclaim eventually folded the comic division to focus purely on video games after losing their Sporting Licensing. How did the readership benefit? They watched their favorite books get horribly altered and eventually go out of print. But I'm sure somebody made money."

Now this I don't understand how in any way proves capitalism is bad. It sounds like a company found a market for their product, then made some bad decisions and rightfully failed for it. Their competion obviously knew that quality was important and succeeded for supplying the public products they demanded at a price they were willing to pay.


I'm sure somebody made money on that Valiant thing too, but to me they were foolish because they would have kept making even more money buy selling a quality product people were willing to pay for instead of cashing in on a quick buck. It sounds like they shot themselves in the foot with that one.

Haterex wrote:

"Did communism work in Russia? Depends if your needs were being met."

Communism failed the Soviet Union. Their system collapsed.


"The only job of a pure capitalist is to make money."

By effectively meeting the demands of consumers with their products and services. What's so bad about that? Everyone wins.

I think the bad part is , where would the line of "effectively meeting demands" of the customer be drawn? A whole lot of jobs have gone over to China, and India in order to turn over a profit. As a result, we receive a whole lot of product. Eventually the company tries to cut out as many people as they can in order to increase profit. As a result, we get crappier products, and shoddy service because the company's decision to "trim the budget" as they see fit. Note that the CEO's budget, nor the Board members, or part owners shares or wages will get considered in the cuts. As a result, the worker's might not get a decent health care system that year, employees will be lost, etc. Nothing good can come out of pure capitalism in the end.

That's just false. If a company is delivering shoddy goods, nobody is going to purchase them and the company will fail. In order to supply the demand of quality goods, companies have to hire more people, and attract those people to the jobs with incentives like good wages and healthcare packages. If the big wigs don't want to cut their salaries they're entitled to do that, it's their company, but some other company who knows that they have to pay better to get better workers will make the sacrifices necessary to get the people they need so they can put out better goods and services for those willing to pay for them. I know most people hate rich folks, but I've never been offered a job by a poor man in my life.

"That's just false. If a company is delivering shoddy goods, nobody is going to purchase them and the company will fail."

Unfortunately that's not true. It's called cornering the market and superior market. If I eliminate my competition I can produce whatever I want because I'm the only game in town.

NEC (Turbografix 16) vs Nintendo. I comparison to the Nintendo it was the better product. You could play their games on the console and on the handheld being completely interchangeable. NES signed exclusive contracts with game developers that forced them to exclude making games for NEC. This was deemed illegal but by the time the courts came to this decision NEC had been bled.

"Now this I don't understand how in any way proves capitalism is bad."

No prob, I'll break it down. The Venture Capitalist made a quick buck. This is what venture capitalism is about. The VCs/Backers had no interest in running a comic book company but they backed someone who did. The Creator/Editors/Writers provided the heart and soul and the backers the body. Once they made a profit they sold it. Fans of these comics lost their comics. You say they could go buy another one. It's not the same. Its like telling a Lord of the Rings fan watch In the Name of King instead because they are both fantasy. The difference is one sucks and the other is classic. It's like losing Geto Boys and being told listen to Souljahboy because they are both Southern Rap. Not the same.

If Edison a well known capitalist had had his way we'd all be still on DC instead of AC. When two companies compete the superior product or service does not always win. Tactics wins economic wars.

Watch Who Killed the Electric Car? Those behind its destruction or delay of entry into the American market are doing just fine. People in charge are on an individualistic tip. Keep the bus running until I get to my stop mentality. They don't plan on holding the bag when things fold.

Pure money-grubbing is not cool because it can get ridiculous. Protest and they got Pinkertons to get your mind right.

"If the big wigs don't want to cut their salaries they're entitled to do that"
If you expect everyone to sacrifice but you that's bullshit. And I question your ethics. Cut a small percentage out of your check a multitude of people can keep their jobs or you fink for an extra ivory backscratcher. Lead by example when you start giving out cuts.

Credit card companies skate on technicality. They loan people money with the hope they can't pay it back. By the time you pay them back they have made back way more than what the original item that was purchased was worth. This why they were so gung-ho about giving college students with limited money management skills credit cards. They saw prey and pounced. During my Dad's day they wouldn't do that because knew the odds were people have trouble paying them back. I mean you wouldn't buy a drink for alcoholic.

There was a time when the top guy made 50 times more than the bottom guy and now it's like 400 times.

They don't even teach kids about money now in school. They get out in the real world and ill-prepared. They teach you to be drone. Follow the chain of command and regurgitate dogma.

"It's like losing Geto Boys and being told listen to Souljahboy because they are both Southern Rap. Not the same."

this is total BS right here, you're suggesting that SB is the ONLY alternative!!! lame argument - C'mon, capitalism isn't to blame, it's a stupid mainstream audience.



"this is BS as well, if someone comes up with a better technology, they will sell it because it's better. Plain and forking simple. Of course Edison would fight tooth and nail against it because it's against HIS best interest, but he will fail because people want something that's available that is better and cheaper.
Credit card companies skate on technicality. They loan people money with the hope they can't pay it back. By the time you pay them back they have made back way more than what the original item that was purchased was worth. This why they were so gung-ho about giving college students with limited money management skills credit cards. They saw prey and pounced. During my Dad's day they wouldn't do that because knew the odds were people have trouble paying them back. I mean you wouldn't buy a drink for alcoholic."

lol this isn't the fault of the credit card companies, it's the fault of stupid consumers whos parents didn't teach them an ounce of finacial basics & responsiblities. It's like arguing that rat poinson is bad because a child could eat it, when it's in fact a consumer's obligation to READ the label and use the product in its intended manner.


"They don't even teach kids about money now in school. They get out in the real world and ill-prepared. They teach you to be drone. Follow the chain of command and regurgitate dogma"

blame the big government you seem to love so much about what children are tought in public schools these days. Capatialism can't be blamed for that shit.

Capitalism nor money is needed. Money only has value cause WE place value on it. Land has real value. Funny, it takes money,which really has no value, to obtain land or other things that have extreme value. Good land,clean water,oil,diamonds,gold has value no matter what country has it. But why doesnt money always hold value? I'm like a fancy peice of paper printed in Zimbabwe is the same as a fancy piece of paper printed in America. America's money is backed by its hegemony.

Also if you was to break down the forms of governments Catiatolism,Socialism,Communism, Fascism ect youd find an element of all in our government. Actually NO govt, can claim to be one thing. Id say America is Imperialism if anything. But capitalism means everythings for sale including your soul.

Trotter, you seem to be full of complaints but completely void of any sort of answers or solutions about anything you complain about. What do you think would make a better society????

"blame the big government you seem to love so much"
Don't tack on stuff I never said.

Credit Card Companies are predators they lack ethics. Why would make a loan with someone who didn't meet the standards of a good loan? This is at the crux of the housing crisis. Greed overpowered reason. We now suffer higher rates on everything and abandoned homes which are magnets for crime and plummeting home market values.

For a loan to work it takes two to tango. Would you loan money to a friend you knew couldn't pay you back? Would you then turn around and be mad he didn't pay you back?

"SB is the ONLY alternative!!!"
Didn't say it was. But you don't get it either. If I want to read X-O Manowar I don't want Iron Man, Steel, Metal Men, War Machine, etc. I buy the books I want to read. They can't be replaced. If your kid dies and someone gives you an adopted kid or you have another kid it's still NOT THE SAME. When one of the comics I was reading got discontinued they sent me something else. I didn't want it I would've rather had the monetary difference. If I walk into a store and don't see what I want I buy nothing. The only exception to this rule is food because I must eat. If I wanted the alternative I would've bought it.

Capitalism is not without its faults. Can you at least concede that as a possibility?

There is no "better" society just a different set of problems. Better is relative to which side of the line you fall on.

Every society has the same problem, people.

Oh God. Not another arguement about our government. Hasn't enough been said favoring capitalism (Me and Exzakt) and enough against it (everybody else)? No one is going to change minds of anyone else

Shon wrote:

Oh God. Not another arguement about our government. Hasn't enough been said favoring capitalism (Me and Exzakt) and enough against it (everybody else)? No one is going to change minds of anyone else

That's true. Nobody is going to change anybodies mind, but both sides of the coin can be looked at and examined in hopes to gain understanding on both ends. I can see why some people favour capitalism, and I can see why some folks dislike it. It's just a healthy discussion, nothing more and nothing less.

Ey yo dang, don't take this the wrong way man but i'm curious. You seem to speak a lot about africa, zimbabwe et al... You ever been to africa bruv?

a.scott wrote:

Honestly, I was thinking about having an alternate method. It could work mostly in small communities, or amongst friends. Here's what I had planned:

I have a few friends who have vegetable gardens, and I have one as well. Plus I have friends who have chickens, some are very handy and capable of providing various services such as roofing, fixing cars, basic handyman type stuff. If everybody got together and decided to trade goods/services for whatever they need, then something good could happen. For example, If I needed rice, and I have a friend who has a lot of potatoes, but has a surplus of rice, I could go to her house and trade potatoes for rice. Both parties get the food they need without going to the store. I know this won't work when it comes to paying the bills, but it will work so you can have more money available for stuff like that. You wouldn't have to go to the store as much, plus both families get food. It sounds very far fetched, but it could work.

What you're describing there is called a barter economy. Money was made to actually provide a median and make paying for services a lot easier. A barter is makes trade way more difficult.

Haterex wrote:

Trotter, you seem to be full of complaints but completely void of any sort of answers or solutions about anything you complain about. What do you think would make a better society????

I believe in individual solution. For me its to live under a rock but Id still haveta pay property tax

Sinj.of.SA wrote:

Ey yo dang, don't take this the wrong way man but i'm curious. You seem to speak a lot about africa, zimbabwe et al... You ever been to africa bruv?

Hell no. Africa sold me into slavery. I just hope you guys gave America a receipt, cause I think the US want their money back for my crazy ass

Lol.....alright dang. Frankly i don't care what you call it, socialist, capitalist. So long as the ppl are doing their job right and avoiding corruption, then i'm all for it. What kinda bull shit is it having a rapist and a corrupt dumbass running your country? Eish south africa. Is everyone really as excited for obama as the media portrays you guys to be?

Sinj.of.SA wrote:

Lol.....alright dang. Frankly i don't care what you call it, socialist, capitalist. So long as the ppl are doing their job right and avoiding corruption, then i'm all for it. What kinda bull shit is it having a rapist and a corrupt dumbass running your country? Eish south africa. Is everyone really as excited for obama as the media portrays you guys to be?

A lot of people were really excited about Obama, especially Blacks (myself being one of them). Now everybody is waiting to see what he does, and how he does it (at least that's what I'm doing). Unfortunately, we still have some dumb asses who insist on making racial comments towards Obama. I don't have a problem with people complaining about his policies, but people need to leave his race out of it.