Is Marley Marl Overrated?

I bought Hip-Hop Lives today for $3.27 tax-free at my local exchange, and had a startling thought. Is he overrated? Yeah, he was dope back in the day, with little to no competition. Today? He can't make a dope beat. All those beats are average, and literally any producer nowadays could have outdone him.

Guys like Pete Rock, Premo, RZA, Dre, etc. can still make a dope beat. Why can't Marley?

Absolutely NOT! Is Marley Marl past his prime? Maybe, but definitely not overrated. He's made FAR too many classics to be considered overrated. He's one of the greatest producers of all time.

As for him not being able to make a dope beat anymore, I disagree. I liked his work on Hip-Hop Lives with KRS-One. I also liked that beat on the UGK track with Kane and G Rap, and that Pyrex Vision beat for Raekwon.

Nowadays, Marley does most of his work on the club/party/radio scene than he does producing. But he's still got skills.

I don't know about overrated, he's not one of my favorites though

Certainly, I think the quality of production improved a lot after his prime, and he can't compete with elite producers any more, but he was essential in laying the foundation that allowed that to happen, so he can't be overrated in terms of his importance.

If someone were to argue that he is currently an elite producer, than yeah, in my opinion that would be overrating him.

Well KJ, how come the producers I listed are easily able to make great beats in 2010?

Steve wrote:

Well KJ, how come the producers I listed are easily able to make great beats in 2010?

You are assuming Marley can't which is fine, but there are people who would disagree. There are people out there who think Dre has fallen off too. It's just a matter of taste and preference.

Pete Rock is the only one on that list who still really has it, IMO.

It's hard to be overrated when you're the best

I get that alot

I agree with what Jason said. And I see where Steve is coming from. Just like most the rappers from that era they have been laped twice lyrically as time has passed.

Naw, I don't think he's overrated.

Steve wrote:

Well KJ, how come the producers I listed are easily able to make great beats in 2010?

As I stated in my previous post, I disagree with you. I think Marley Marl is more than capable of making dope beats and I gave examples above. Right now, Marley is more intrigued with the club scene, which is netting him tons of money. He's fallen back into Funkmaster Flex/DJ Clue mode.

Even if you feel that he's fallen off or whatever, you can't honestly call him overrated given his catalog. The shit that he's accomplished trumps the vast majority of producers easily.

I'm not disputing his place in the game - he's one of the legends and pioneers.

However, his skill as a producer? I think that is in question right now; I wouldn't even put him top 50 in 2010.

I don't think Marley is overrated because nobody really ever talks about him as a premier producer. Yeah he did make a lot of beats, but I think he's most often celebrated as a DJ and a pioneer that helped lay the foundation for a lot of stuff that followed. I've never heard him spoken of in the same breath as Pete Rock, RZA, or Premo because they succeeded him and were focused completely on creative production.

That said, I also don't think he's overrated for two other reasons. For one was a pioneer of a young, indistinct genre. To compare him to PR, RZA, and Premo is like comparing the Sugarhill Gang to Nas and AZ--you can't, because the art hadn't had time to evolve. The second reason is because the two producers who were his "proteges," received heavy instruction from him and credit him as their biggest influence, are the two I consider two of the East Coast's very best: Pete Rock and K-Def. Oh, and he produced the "Mama Said Knock You Out" album.

Steve wrote:

I'm not disputing his place in the game - he's one of the legends and pioneers.

However, his skill as a producer? I think that is in question right now; I wouldn't even put him top 50 in 2010.

I disagree with that entirely. I just think that Marley would rather DJ at clubs and parties nowadays than produce beats. I bet if he did a full length or even produced the majority of tracks for one of today's dopest MC's, that shit would bang hard.

You also need to keep in mind that he's been doin this shit since the mid-80's, most of today's top guys are in their prime.

"I've never heard him spoken of in the same breath as Pete Rock, RZA, or Premo because they succeeded him and were focused completely on creative production."

You've clearly never heard Powell talk about the subject... lol. Marley is my GOAT producer, too

Shaun wrote:

You've clearly never heard Powell talk about the subject... lol. Marley is my GOAT producer, too

Yeah, Derrick will school peeps on Marley indeed. Mr Williams is 3rd on my GOAT producer list.

[quote="Eastern Rap Pro"][quote="Steve"]I'm not disputing his place in the game - he's one of the legends and pioneers.

However, his skill as a producer? I think that is in question right now; I wouldn't even put him top 50 in 2010.[/quote]

I disagree with that entirely. I just think that Marley would rather DJ at clubs and parties nowadays than produce beats. I bet if he did a full length or even produced the majority of tracks for one of today's dopest MC's, that shit would bang hard.

You also need to keep in mind that he's been doin this shit since the mid-80's, most of today's top guys are in their prime. [/quote]


My whole reason for making this topic was Hip-Hop Lives, made in '07. Seems like KRS was the only one who brought any energy to that project. The time thing is null and void too - Premo been doin' it since the 80's too. Supposedly KRS is releasing an all Premo disc this year or sometime soon, and my bet is that it smashes Hip-Hop Lives.

[quote="ctrx"]I don't think Marley is overrated because nobody really ever talks about him as a premier producer. Yeah he did make a lot of beats, but I think he's most often celebrated as a DJ and a pioneer that helped lay the foundation for a lot of stuff that followed. I've never heard him spoken of in the same breath as Pete Rock, RZA, or Premo because they succeeded him and were focused completely on creative production.

That said, I also don't think he's overrated for two other reasons. For one was a pioneer of a young, indistinct genre. To compare him to PR, RZA, and Premo is like comparing the Sugarhill Gang to Nas and AZ--you can't, because the art hadn't had time to evolve. The second reason is because the two producers who were his "proteges," received heavy instruction from him and credit him as their biggest influence, are the two I consider two of the East Coast's very best: Pete Rock and K-Def. Oh, and he produced the "Mama Said Knock You Out" album.[/quote]

You kinda contradict yourself there man, and give me ammo with your LL post. One, who cares about the time difference - skill level still applies. Comparing Whodini to Nas, Whodini would get smashed, even if Whodini rapped today, and Nas been doing it since '92.

Same with Marley. People confuse his legend and pioneer status with skill. I am just saying, on his production merits alone, he is overrated.

SMH @ Steve. There's a difference between someone being past their prime and being overrated.

Being overrated suggests that he doesn't deserve to be put in the same light as the all time greats, and that's BULLSHIT!!

Marley Marl has had hands in producing the following classic albums:

Paid In Full
Long Live The Kane
It's A Big Daddy Thing
Goin Off
Road To The Riches
Take A Look Around
Wanted: Dead Or Alive
Mama Said Knock You Out
Intelligent Hoodlum
The Triflin Album
The War Report

And those are just the 5 star albums, not to mention the classic tracks and near classic albums he's been involved with.

Marley Marl isn't overrated AT ALL. Most of today's producers can't hold a fucking candle to his catalog and many of them will never be mentioned among all time greats like he is.

You are clearly underestimating a legend. Marley was crafting hits before the dawn of the advanced technology age, and has still done it better than most. Recognize and realize!

Jason wrote:

Certainly, I think the quality of production improved a lot after his prime, and he can't compete with elite producers any more, but he was essential in laying the foundation that allowed that to happen, so he can't be overrated in terms of his importance.

If someone were to argue that he is currently an elite producer, than yeah, in my opinion that would be overrating him.

this is something that you see a bunch from the youngsters...that the "quality" of this has improved or the "quality" of that...that beats have "improved" or that lyrics have "improved" and if your 25 years of age or younger you actually believe that the bullshit your listening to today is actually "improved" from what was yesterdays hip-hop...but all of the true heads understand that this is the weakest period of all-time for the music in general so if it has "improved" then I'm not sure where that has occurred....


Anyway Marley Marl is number one on my producer's list easily......this thread is good ol Steve announcing his presence back on the board again...I mean he started it with Hip-Hop Lives and says that according to that recording Marley Marl has got to be overrated...he's basing his decision on HIP-HOP LIVES...LMAOOOOOOO

that's like me saying his beloved 2PAC has got to be overrated and I'm basing that decision on LOYAL TO THE GAME.....I mean its laughable man


Umm Steve I know you've changed your ways and your an honorable citizen of these here parts now...but from the bottom of my heart:

C'MON SON GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE! and I sincerely mean this too man

Paid in Full - Claims to have produced 2 tracks, Eric B. says he was only an engineer.
Long Live the Kane - Classic
It's a Big Daddy Thing - One track
Goin' Off - Produced the whole album, but no one was claiming classic back then and it hasn't held up IMO
Road to the Riches - Classic
Take A Look Around - Once again not 5 stars, and yes he did most the board work
Wanted: Dead or Alive - One track
Mama Said Knock you Out - Classic
Intelligent Hoodlum - He did most the work, nobody ever called this 5 stars though
Triflin' Album - One track, and 5 stars???? LMAAO, sorry man
War Report - One track


Looking up above, yeah he made some classics. Not ONE of those albums was classic due to the production like say a Chronic, a Group Home, a CL Smooth record, etc. A lot of the sound hasn't aged well to me either IMO, while other truly elite producer's has. Just my opinion.

Like I said he was a pioneer, and had a studio and influence in the rap game as a producer when basically no one else did. When the rest of the game caught up, he got left by faster than a speeding bullet IMO, which is why nobody looks to him to produce in over a decade except for a track here or there (and his weak effort with KRS)

And Powell, my main contention is that he can't compete aanymore, while true elites such as Dre, RZA, Premo, PR, etc. can

If you just count the first 5 years of Marley's career then he is one of the GOATs. If you hold against him the next 20 years of his career then he is pretty average. Let's be real, the man had one creative spurt to start and since then has been mostly average and wack.

He's had some decent to great beats in the last 20 years, but has not produced any classic albums or true hits.

So its a double edged sword for him. Had he died in 1990 he'd be an all time legend. Do the 20 years that followed prove him to have been somewhat of a fluke?

Steve wrote:

And Powell, my main contention is that he can't compete aanymore, while true elites such as Dre, RZA, Premo, PR, etc. can

And your basing that decision on Hip-Hop Lives man...and that's laughable...stop it

anyway go listen to Craig G-Operation Take Back Hip-Hop (2008)...that one IMO was a better produced effort than Hip-Hop Lives....

I believe Marley is still capable of doing anything he wants and quite easily too if he puts his musical genius mind to it!

Southern Rap Pro wrote:

If you just count the first 5 years of Marley's career then he is one of the GOATs. If you hold against him the next 20 years of his career then he is pretty average. Let's be real, the man had one creative spurt to start and since then has been mostly average and wack.

He's had some decent to great beats in the last 20 years, but has not produced any classic albums or true hits.

So its a double edged sword for him. Had he died in 1990 he'd be an all time legend. Do the 20 years that followed prove him to have been somewhat of a fluke?

"the first 5 years"????????


Pedro you continue to remain CLUELESS man....it shows in every word you type...lmaooooo

Hey Pedro how many hip-hop albums did Just-Ice have to compete with in 1986 man???

Now Powell, what else would I base that off of? Why would someone throw out some half-ass shit, did he not put his mind into the KRS effort? I will listen to the Craig G record, but from what I have heard I doubt my opinion will change.


If I don't base it off HHL, then what else does he have to really show for the past 15 years?

he's not producing joints like he was before...so what?? your not really looking to get into his music man...your looking to locate his flaws...and thats all good because every emcee/producer has them...so it's no big deal to me...regardless of what you say he remains number 1 on my producers list and easily too

he hasn't produced a hit or a dope song in a long long time... and he has tried....

i'm not looking to change your opinion powell just some discussion and you know i respect your views on rap more than 95% of the forum so it's all good baby bubba

Steve wrote:

i'm not looking to change your opinion powell just some discussion and you know i respect your views on rap more than 95% of the forum so it's all good baby bubba

no doubt my dude...I'm glad to see you back...we needed to wake this joint up again man...

Tha Triflin' Album......5 Stars

The production on Goin' Off still holds up against todays standards. Im not really up on him since the eighties, though.

Steve wrote:

Paid in Full - Claims to have produced 2 tracks, Eric B. says he was only an engineer.
Long Live the Kane - Classic
It's a Big Daddy Thing - One track
Goin' Off - Produced the whole album, but no one was claiming classic back then and it hasn't held up IMO
Road to the Riches - Classic
Take A Look Around - Once again not 5 stars, and yes he did most the board work
Wanted: Dead or Alive - One track
Mama Said Knock you Out - Classic
Intelligent Hoodlum - He did most the work, nobody ever called this 5 stars though
Triflin' Album - One track, and 5 stars???? LMAAO, sorry man
War Report - One track


Looking up above, yeah he made some classics. Not ONE of those albums was classic due to the production like say a Chronic, a Group Home, a CL Smooth record, etc. A lot of the sound hasn't aged well to me either IMO, while other truly elite producer's has. Just my opinion.

Like I said he was a pioneer, and had a studio and influence in the rap game as a producer when basically no one else did. When the rest of the game caught up, he got left by faster than a speeding bullet IMO, which is why nobody looks to him to produce in over a decade except for a track here or there (and his weak effort with KRS)

A lot of people call Goin Off a classic. Biz Markie isn't an elite MC, but the production on that album is AWESOME and he made Biz sound like a superstar, much like Premo did with Group Home. And Biz is a much better MC than Malachi or Lil Dap.

A lot of people consider Take A Look Around and Tragedy's debut classics. Then you say that the other albums weren't classics due to the production. Well you cannot argue that Kane's best work came from working with Marley Marl, and many say that about G Rap and LL as well. The difference between those albums and the ones you mentioned is that Marley was working with much better MC's than Dre, Premo, or Pete Rock was. Doesn't make Marley's production any less significant though.

Marley is STILL respected in the hip-hop community and always will be. It's not that nobody doesn't look to him to make hits, he just feels like doing clubs and parties at this point in his career. Even if he never made another beat again, he'd still go down as one of the best producers to ever do it. Not to mention that he influenced as many of today's producers as anyone.

I agree with everything that Powell said. You cannot base someone's career on one album that he did, especially when that album was done some 25 years into his career. 95% of all producers would kill to have a career as legendary as he has, and that's real talk.

Kid Joe wrote:

The production on Goin' Off still holds up against todays standards. Im not really up on him since the eighties, though.

maybe he should throw Slaine some beats and get that damn career started for crying out loud

D.Powell wrote:

Kid Joe wrote:

The production on Goin' Off still holds up against todays standards. Im not really up on him since the eighties, though.

maybe he should throw Slaine some beats and get that damn career started for crying out loud

Slaine's career is more stable than Marley's. And, KJ, Kane wrote Goin' Off. Almost entirely.

Steve, I would say Goin Off is one of about 5-6 albums from before '90 that still holds up, production-wise.

Kid Joe wrote:

D.Powell wrote:

Kid Joe wrote:

The production on Goin' Off still holds up against todays standards. Im not really up on him since the eighties, though.

maybe he should throw Slaine some beats and get that damn career started for crying out loud

Slaine's career is more stable than Marley's. And, KJ, Kane wrote Goin' Off. Almost entirely.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO @ Slaine

I think Powell and KJ need to learn to step back from their fanaticism and really critically look at even their favorites.

Kid Joe wrote:

Steve, I would say Goin Off is one of about 5-6 albums from before '90 that still holds up, production-wise.

now this is CO-SIGNAGE info right here.....

Southern Rap Pro wrote:

I think Powell and KJ need to learn to step back from their fanaticism and really critically look at even their favorites.

I said that Marley is not creating beats with regularity anymore...just like Michael Jordan is not playing basketball like he used to anymore.....and the point is???

I think that Pedro needs to tell me what hip-hop albums were out in 1986, that Just-Ice was competing...show me that your really a "rap pro"...explain all knowing emperor how even at the age of 2 that you still were a "rap pro"

I was 4 in 86 and fucking your moms....nah....

But that's all you had to say fool, you're giving marley a pass cuz he's old like you so you can relate to how hard it is to get up in the morning. No one's trying to diss marley.

LOL

D.Powell wrote:

Jason wrote:

Certainly, I think the quality of production improved a lot after his prime, and he can't compete with elite producers any more, but he was essential in laying the foundation that allowed that to happen, so he can't be overrated in terms of his importance.

If someone were to argue that he is currently an elite producer, than yeah, in my opinion that would be overrating him.

this is something that you see a bunch from the youngsters...that the "quality" of this has improved or the "quality" of that...that beats have "improved" or that lyrics have "improved" and if your 25 years of age or younger you actually believe that the bullshit your listening to today is actually "improved" from what was yesterdays hip-hop...but all of the true heads understand that this is the weakest period of all-time for the music in general so if it has "improved" then I'm not sure where that has occurred....

Shocking response, completely unexpected.

I'm not gonna waste much time on this, since you're just gonna completely dismiss any disagreement as invalid, because you can't handle thinking that someone might disagree with you without just falling back on your old schtick of being older than everyone here, but this is recorded music we're talking about. If it's just about the technique, the way the beat sounds, and people have ears at any age, they can listen to Marley's work side by side with someone else's and make their own judgment, and not worry about whether you think they're "true" heads or not.

Jason wrote:

D.Powell wrote:

Jason wrote:

Certainly, I think the quality of production improved a lot after his prime, and he can't compete with elite producers any more, but he was essential in laying the foundation that allowed that to happen, so he can't be overrated in terms of his importance.

If someone were to argue that he is currently an elite producer, than yeah, in my opinion that would be overrating him.

this is something that you see a bunch from the youngsters...that the "quality" of this has improved or the "quality" of that...that beats have "improved" or that lyrics have "improved" and if your 25 years of age or younger you actually believe that the bullshit your listening to today is actually "improved" from what was yesterdays hip-hop...but all of the true heads understand that this is the weakest period of all-time for the music in general so if it has "improved" then I'm not sure where that has occurred....

Shocking response, completely unexpected.

I'm not gonna waste much time on this, since you're just gonna completely dismiss any disagreement as invalid, because you can't handle thinking that someone might disagree with you without just falling back on your old schtick of being older than everyone here, but this is recorded music we're talking about. If it's just about the technique, the way the beat sounds, and people have ears at any age, they can listen to Marley's work side by side with someone else's and make their own judgment, and not worry about whether you think they're "true" heads or not.

LOL


umm mm-kay Jase....like I said before this is the WEAKEST point in the history of hip-hop music man....maybe you have obtained wax in your ears and need a q-tip.....or a hearing aid.....so I'm not really sure who's older than whom if that is the case!

I would say that Hip-Hop is extremely diluted right now, so weakest in that sense, yes, but we're comparing elite to elite in this discussion, which bypasses that issue.

whose the elite out right now that we're comparing to Marley Marl man??

RZA IMO is past his prime (he was in the 90's)

so is Pete Rock (another 90's cat)

so is Dr.Dre (late 80's/early 90's)

Premier (he's 90's too Jase)

who are we comparing that is out right now?/


you must mean Jake One is elite and has surpassed Marley Marl??


or maybe my dude who does the Silver Jews??


like I said earlier there is absolutely nothing to talk about if you don't first make sense

The whole point of this thread is that those guys can still bring the heat, whereas Marley can't. Whether or not you agree...

I won't disagree that those guys are past their primes as well, but I think their recent work is higher quality than Marley's recent work. And Jake One's recent work is better also, for that matter (better than recent stuff from most of those names even).

Sometimes you have to say things several different ways before it clicks around here...