Reasonable Doubt vs. The Blueprint

Alan wrote:

Fu-Schickens were ill. Don't hate cause Jay couldn't hang. lol

I wasn't calling them whack Pounds, I was saying that Fu style was whack for him. You could tell it was not natural for him. I agree that Fu style was dope and very very unique.

KJ Styles wrote:

Now that makes no sense. Yeah he may not have been that great in the Hawaiian Sophie days, but hey, he re-invented himself on Reasonable Doubt.

What beats didn't you like as far as the production? The "Jiggy" era had more to do with Diddy and Bad Boy than it did with Jay. As far as the Cristal references and stereotypes, well Jay has ALWAYS been about those, and still is to this day.

I say SMH to that post. Not because you prefer The Blueprint, but because those are lame reasons not to like Reasonable Doubt.

See what I mean, Wayne? lol

KRob86 wrote:

Nor's a trip but anyway....

Calling Jay a sellout because he dropped that whack ass Fu style is crazy as hell imo. Jay refined his rap style to a more easy to follow style that works for him. Doesn't seem forced or sell outish and that works for me. Can ya'll imagine where he'll be with that Fu style...lol. I call it evolution...he had to get out the boat in order to walk on water...lol.

Call it what ya want, pimpin'... Wasn't really looking for the green light from you, KJ, or anyone else. Wayne asked...I answered.

Simple as that...

Also, Jay himself knows he sold out...but you don't. Make that make sense.

If that wasn't the overstatement of the century...

Bushido Brown wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

Nor's a trip but anyway....

Calling Jay a sellout because he dropped that whack ass Fu style is crazy as hell imo. Jay refined his rap style to a more easy to follow style that works for him. Doesn't seem forced or sell outish and that works for me. Can ya'll imagine where he'll be with that Fu style...lol. I call it evolution...he had to get out the boat in order to walk on water...lol.

Call it what ya want, pimpin'... Wasn't really looking for the green light from you, KJ, or anyone else. Wayne asked...I answered.
Simple as that...

Also, Jay himself knows he sold out...but you don't. Make that make sense.

Co-sign. I wasn't seeking approval either

Everyone who has been listening to hip-hop over the past 15 years should be able to realize that Jay-Z from 1996 (his debut) up until now has sold out and followed different formulas to be successful and keep himself current....this is not a secret so pointing it out doesn't really show any hip-hop knowledge but just a great ability to recite words from things like Wikipedia and other hip-hop writings (i.e The Source, XXL, Vibe Magazine..etc) because all of those publications and many others have done articles about Jay selling out....


with all of that said IN MY OPINION Jay is still one the greatest to ever do it even with his bumps in the road (every artist has those..you'd be dumb not to realize that even your favorites have had moments where they fucked up)

I've noticed a real need to follow everything I say up with a IN MY OPINION disclaimer as well so we can reduce the moments that heads on here open up their mouths and taste their own SHIT....go get a bib...lol!

D.Powell wrote:

with all of that said IN MY OPINION Jay is still one the greatest to ever do it even with his bumps in the road (every artist has those..you'd be dumb not to realize that even your favorites have had moments where they fucked up)

Cosign.

I understand why some feel Jay is a sell out but to me he isn't and thats okay right? Just because Jay sell records and makes hits does not make him a sellout it makes him a smart artist and it means the people choose him. RD was not a hardcore album and if you thought so your ears need to be checked. That album is what started the whole smooth Jay kickin lyrics over more accessibile beats. And he has followed that formula since. Calling a Jay sell out for knowing how to pick the right beats is fucking crazy to me. Only way Jay would be a sellout in my eyes is if he dropped only one type of single all the time. But Jay has given us all types of themes and subjects. But he's to be faulted because the beat and hook is hot?? GTFOH!

Kevin, what you fail to understand is that people take issue not only with the Jay-Z shit, but also with the fact that you defend Jay-Z until the death but consistently fault other artists for "selling out" or "trying new shit". It's really hypocritical.

The problem with mob mentality is that there's no way it can work in the field of music. There's no way everyone agrees on every artist. The sooner folks get that through their thick skulls the better these threads and discussions go.

Just sayin'...

yes

N3R0N0N Of 0nslaught3r wrote:

Kevin, what you fail to understand is that people take issue not only with the Jay-Z shit, but also with the fact that you defend Jay-Z until the death but consistently fault other artists for "selling out" or "trying new shit". It's really hypocritical.

Not true. Its like you are trying to fault me for not agreeing with this tried arguement.

Bushido Brown wrote:

The problem with mob mentality is that there's no way it can work in the field of music. There's no way everyone agrees on every
artist. The sooner folks get that through their thick skulls the better these threads and discussions go.

Just sayin'...

Well the problem with the snob mentality is its hard for one to fanthom that when they put their thoughts out there they seem thrown off that someone has something opposite to say. They have to be "dick riders", "nutt huggers", and blah blah because they have some say so. Its works both ways. No one has a problem per say with how you feel we just have opposing views. And like you said:

"The sooner folks get that through their thick skulls the better these threads and discussions go."

I'm not really sure what there is to disagree about Kev. Jay has basically admitted to selling out. I personally don't care cause all that matters to me is how the music sounds to me, but it's hard to dispute what jay has already fessed up to. The only thing debatable would be your definition of "sellout" compared to myself, Norf, or anyone else, but that's almost certainly gonna be pointless in the end. Which brings me back to the point i was making about only caring about what sounds good to these ears.

lol...clearly the shoe fit. Otherwise, you wouldn't take such a childish approach in your response. I don't recall mentioning anyone in particular.

And who is being a snob? I did just sit here and say Blueprint was a classic. Vol. 1 and Vol. 3 are favorites of mine as well. I know Blueprint word for word.

Come again?

Bushido Brown wrote:

lol...clearly the shoe fit. Otherwise, you wouldn't take such a childish approach in your response. I don't recall mentioning anyone in particular.

And who is being a snob? I did just sit here and say Blueprint was a classic. Vol. 1 and Vol. 3 are favorites of mine as well. I know Blueprint word for word.

Come again?

that's what she said

the shit is leaking off their bottom lips and sliding right off that big chin, onto the front of that white shirt, straight down to the creases in their pants..right onto the tops of their new blue converse...


just sayin though! YUCK!

T. Myers wrote:

I'm not really sure what there is to disagree about Kev. Jay has basically admitted to selling out. I personally don't care cause all that matters to me is how the music sounds to me, but it's hard to dispute what jay has already fessed up to. The only thing debatable would be your definition of "sellout" compared to myself, Norf, or anyone else, but that's almost certainly gonna be pointless in the end. Which brings me back to the point i was making about only caring about what sounds good to these ears.

Jay did not admit to selling out imo he did admit to what he could be if he wanted. If I remember right the infamous quote (if that is what you are refering too?) read something like

If lyrics sold I'd PROBABLY be like Talib Kweli"

To me that word "probably" is key. Could he have been speculating on what he could have been? Could it have been a shot at the state of the industry and how it looks at lyrical emcees? Do you think Jay even has it in him to be on Kweli's level subject matter wise? I don't. I think Jay is who he is and when he attempts to get "deep" it comes off cheesy most of the time. So I careless what Jay said, a magazine says, or whoever, he's not a sellout to me. He reps hip hop if not better but as hard as anyone else. No blind fold here, no fan boy talk, just truly how I see it.

KRob86 wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

I'm not really sure what there is to disagree about Kev. Jay has basically admitted to selling out. I personally don't care cause all that matters to me is how the music sounds to me, but it's hard to dispute what jay has already fessed up to. The only thing debatable would be your definition of "sellout" compared to myself, Norf, or anyone else, but that's almost certainly gonna be pointless in the end. Which brings me back to the point i was making about only caring about what sounds good to these ears.

Jay did not admit to selling out imo he did admit to what he could be if he wanted. If I remember right the infamous quote (if that is what you are refering too?) read something like

If lyrics sold I'd PROBABLY be like Talib Kweli"

To me that word "probably" is key. Could he have been speculating on what he could have been? Could it have been a shot at the state of the industry and how it looks at lyrical emcees? Do you think Jay even has it in him to be on Kweli's level subject matter wise? I don't. I think Jay is who he is and when he attempts to get "deep" it comes off cheesy most of the time. So I careless what Jay said, a magazine says, or whoever, he's not a sellout to me. He reps hip hop if not better but as hard as anyone else. No blind fold here, no fan boy talk, just truly how I see it.

No that wasn't the exact line i was referring to.

Reveal yer damn source, beeyaiyitch!

"If I remember right the infamous quote (if that is what you are refering too?) read something like "


"I dumb down for my audience, to double my dollar, they criticize me for it yet they all yell holla, if skills sold truth be told, I'd probably be, lyrically Talib Kweli"

Yep, there is no MAYBE in "I DUMB DOWN FOR MY AUDIENCE TO DOUBLE MY DOLLAR"

The message is pretty clear.

Indeed Shaun, indeed. I suppose there is more than one way to look at that line IMO, if you sacrifice your artistic integrity to sell more records, then you are selling out, and intentionally dumbing down your lyrics is selling out IMO. Like i said before, i don't care either way. I only concern myself with what sounds good to these ears.

If lyrics sold then truth be told
I'll probably be just as rich and famous as jay-z
Truthfully I wanna rhyme like common sense
Next best thing I do a record with common sense

Well I don't hear the dumbing down except on a few singles here and there I guess if I was being picky I could point out some dumbing down. But I still don't feel on the grand scale of things he dumbs down his lyrics on purpose on every song and album. For a single here and there I can respect that because you do not want to and can not be rhyming over your average listeners head. Not if you want to reach a certain level, that is not selling out that is business smart. Even when I was rapping I would pick certain songs I thought could be singles and I wouldn't be rhymin about astro psyhics on there or the evolution of man or some shit. I'll rhyme about the most common shit I could but still be lyrical with it just not over the head of your avrage listener.

So all in all I still feel that is what he means by that statement. Because we all know wheteher you admit it or not he does not dumb his shit down to no damn elementary level. But he will dumb it down just enough to get over to the masses and not drive them off with nothing to heavy at first. So thinks for posting the entire quote and making me think more about this.

KRob86 wrote:

I can respect that because you do not want to and can not be rhyming over your average listeners head. Not if you want to reach a certain level, that is not selling out that is business smart.

That's pretty much the definition of selling out.

Exactly.

Viewing your art as a business venture, rather than creative expression, is the epitome of a sellout.

Jason wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

I can respect that because you do not want to and can not be rhyming over your average listeners head. Not if you want to reach a certain level, that is not selling out that is business smart.

That's pretty much the definition of selling out.

To someone that may not be familiar with how the industry works I can see why you would say that. But anyone that makes music and plan to reach a certain level in the business will have to compromise some artistic integrity. Thats the record business ask any rapper that has dealt with a label I promise they will say the same. Ask Tribe why they dropped Bonita Applebum as a single? Ask Brand Nubian why they dropped Slow Down? Ask Scarface why he dropped Let Me Roll? Ask Rakim why he dropped Paid In Full? Ask De La why they dropped Me Myself and I? Every damn rapper that has made any type of noise had to "dumb down" their shit for radio. But since its the mega mogul Jay-Z lets hang the man for something that every artist has done.

KRob86 wrote:

Jason wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

I can respect that because you do not want to and can not be rhyming over your average listeners head. Not if you want to reach a certain level, that is not selling out that is business smart.

That's pretty much the definition of selling out.

To someone that may not be familiar with how the industry works I can see why you would say that. But anyone that makes music and plan to reach a certain level in the business will have to compromise some artistic integrity. Thats the record business ask any rapper that has dealt with a label I promise they will say the same. Ask Tribe why they dropped Bonita Applebum as a single? Ask Brand Nubian why they dropped Slow Down? Ask Scarface why he dropped Let Me Roll? Ask Rakim why he dropped Paid In Full? Ask De La why they dropped Me Myself and I? Every damn rapper that has made any type of noise had to "dumb down" their shit for radio. But since its the mega mogul Jay-Z lets hang the man for something that every artist has done.

Well, duh.

I dumb down for my audience
And double my dollars
They criticize me for it
Yet they all yell "Holla"
If skills sold
Truth be told
I'd probably be
Lyrically
Talib Kweli
Truthfully
I wanna rhyme like Common Sense
(But i did five Mil)
I ain't been rhymin like Common since
When your sense got that much in common
And you been hustlin since
Your inception
Fuck perception
Go with what makes sense

It makes sense to be a sellout

You know, that verse from "Moment Of Clarity" is one of the best verses Jay ever spit IMO, and I TOTALLY respect him for it.

Red forgot to post the rest of it though, which goes....

Since I know what I'm up against
We as rappers must decide what's most important
And I can't help the poor if I'm one of them
So I got rich and gave back
To me that's the win, win
The next time you see the homie and his rims spinnin
Just know my mind is working just like them....the rims that is.

One of the realest verses EVER spoken!!

Some sellout huh?

KRob86 wrote:

Some sellout huh?

Yeah he's a "sellout" alright. He sells out arenas all over the world!

While Jay has been hit or miss post-Blueprint, I still have a tremendous amount of respect for him. People can say what they want, but 95% of all MC's would KILL for a career like his.

KRob86 wrote:

Some sellout huh?

Yes

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

Some sellout huh?

Yes

SMH

You can't help anybody if you're broke, that's why it makes sense to be a sellout.

That is my favorite verse off that album. Everybody that thinks they are defending him are the ones that disagree with Jay.

"Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like Common Sense" Does he rhyme like Common Sense? No

Why? Real shit is not popular so he wouldn't make millions rapping that way

People hear the word "sellout" and start panicking but everybody does it

Red wrote:

You can't help anybody if you're broke, that's why it makes sense to be a sellout.

That is my favorite verse off that album. Everybody that thinks they are defending him are the ones that disagree with Jay.

"Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like Common Sense" Does he rhyme like Common Sense? No

Why? Real shit is not popular so he wouldn't make millions rapping that way

People hear the word "sellout" and start panicking but everybody does it

yep, these jay stans somehow don't want to admit he sold out - even though Jay is mature enough to admit it himself... then these stands get caught up in THEIR OWN negative preconceptions of the term sell out... so they try to rationalize it because in their mind selling out is bad and they can't call rapper X a sell out and put him down if they admit jay is a sell out too....

Well if thats the case every rapper that has been on a major label has sold out. End of thread. Peace.

KRob86 wrote:

Well if thats the case every rapper that has been on a major label has sold out. End of thread. Peace.

I could assume most rappers do it to sell records, but i guess i wouldn't know for sure unless they admit it like Jay did. It's ok Kev. a dumbed down Jay is still better than a vast majority of mc's out there

lol...denial can be a bitch sometimes.

So can blinders...

KJ Styles wrote:

I still have a tremendous amount of respect for him. People can say what they want, but 95% of all MC's would KILL for a career like his.

Cosign.

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

Well if thats the case every rapper that has been on a major label has sold out. End of thread. Peace.

I could assume most rappers do it to sell records, but i guess i wouldn't know for sure unless they admit it like Jay did. It's ok Kev. a dumbed down Jay is still better than a vast majority of mc's out there

Oh you know it for sure. And for Jay to even admit something that was so fucking obvious since the beginning of the record business and get nailed for it is crazy to me....lol.

Just admit you "Jay is a sell out" picket signers lost. I can't change how a lot of you feel about Jay and i'm seriously not trying too. But don't trip because someone see's it differently.

Bushido Brown wrote:

lol...denial can be a bitch sometimes.

So can blinders...

Lol....haters can be a bitch sometimes.

So can snobs....

KRob86 wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

Well if thats the case every rapper that has been on a major label has sold out. End of thread. Peace.

I could assume most rappers do it to sell records, but i guess i wouldn't know for sure unless they admit it like Jay did. It's ok Kev. a dumbed down Jay is still better than a vast majority of mc's out there

Oh you know it for sure. And for Jay to even admit something that was so fucking obvious since the beginning of the record business and get mailed for it is crazy to me....lol.

Just admit you "Jay is a sell out" picket signers lost. I can't change how a lot of you feel about Jay and i'm seriously not trying too. But don't trip because someone see's it differently.

LOL, i'm not bashing Jay for it at all, but i'd be foolish to pretend it didn't exist just cause i'm a huge Jay fan.

Red wrote:

I dumb down for my audience
And double my dollars
They criticize me for it
Yet they all yell "Holla"
If skills sold
Truth be told
I'd probably be
Lyrically
Talib Kweli
Truthfully
I wanna rhyme like Common Sense
(But i did five Mil)
I ain't been rhymin like Common since
When your sense got that much in common
And you been hustlin since
Your inception
Fuck perception
Go with what makes sense

The last line is supposed to be "cents".

Emcees who have sold out:

LL Cool J
TI
Game
Kanye
Jay
Ice Cube
Scarface
etc.
etc.
etc.

don't know why you assume we think its a bad thing or we are hanging jay for it... most of my favorite emcees that have become popular have sold out...

KRob86 wrote:

Bushido Brown wrote:

lol...denial can be a bitch sometimes.

So can blinders...

Lol....haters can be a bitch sometimes.

So can snobs....

This is pointless. You hung up on this snob shit when no one here has said they don't like Jay (we all know Pounds doesn't, but anyway). You need that defense because of the gaping hole left in the logic from your previous argument. It's alright to say you were wrong, playa. But we all know you won't. You'll keep on with that same tired argument.

It's fine, though. Really it is. Anyone with two eyes and a little common sense can see what you're doing...

Southern Rap Pro wrote:

don't know why you assume we think its a bad thing or we are hanging jay for it... most of my favorite emcees that have become popular have sold out...

Co-Sign

And it's not like if you don't sell out then you automatically make better music. Look at Mos Def, he hasn't sacrificed his artistic integrity to appeal to a wider audience and most of his music since his debut has sucked in doing so

Right. But there are fans who just want to hear an artist's genuine expressions. Those are the fans that Mos claims.

You may not like the final product, but there's respect for the process -the integrity. That's something Jay will never have. You can't buy that.