Torture

First of all, if you guys think this thread is irrelevant, uninteresting or stupid please don't post an answer and just move on to something else.

Anyhoo...

A few questions about toture. Feel free to comment on one or several of these:

1) Do you think what the last adminstration carried out was torture?
2) How much do you know about what went on and on what scale?
3) Do you think it is okay to carry out and in which situations?
4) Do you think the rest of the torture pics will be released?
5) Do you think anybody will react and actally prosecute someone?
6) Do you think anyone will be convicted of any wrong doing?

Don't bitch about posts like this before they even occur, it will just shift the focus of your thread from your original intention...

1) Do you think what the last adminstration carried out was torture? yes
2) How much do you know about what went on and on what scale? more than 99.999% of people
3) Do you think it is okay to carry out and in which situations? no, never
4) Do you think the rest of the torture pics will be released? probably not
5) Do you think anybody will react and actally prosecute someone? no
6) Do you think anyone will be convicted of any wrong doing? no

Co sign steve's answer.

I think this thread is irrelevant, uninteresting and stupid.


That said I agree with everything steve said aside from the knowing more than 99% of people.

1. Yes because that wouldn't be acceptable to an ordinary citizen. If a parent used that to discipline their child it would be considered abuse.
2. Details are murky. Honest enough to admit that to myself.
3. From a government standpoint it can't be allowed a policy. We have to hold ourselves to higher standard to hold onto our humanity.
4. Doubt it
5. PROSECUTE, LOL! When they round up COINTELPRO then get at me dog! (ERF ERF!!!)
6. Politicians aren't ready to pull at that thread. If Obama skews these dudes on the barbie then they will stonewall him at every turn in spite. The only way that won't happen is if enough Right Wingers find what they did to be repugnant. Most are just sad they were stupid enough to get caught.

I think the doctor guy there did get prosecuted. The female got a discharge. But this just proves the White man is the devil.

Right, but if the orders to torture and humiliate came from the top why would you even prosecute the troops who carried it out? A few soldiers were prosecuted after the Abu Ghraib photos but what if they were just following orders and this treatment of prisoners was common practise and the results of orders from the absolute top?

The president or noone else has the right or power to make law by giving an order... even if they give an order, if it is illegal it is illegal... how bout these soldiers grow balls and refuse to do shit like that.

Soldiers are trained to follow orders no matter what. And in this case they get punished if they don't follow orders and they get punished if they do. They were scapegoats.

I could give a fuck what someone trained me, I'm not going to hell or breaking my morals because some fucking rich white general who never puts his life on the line wants me to break the law and be a scapegoat for other rich white faggots who don't think the rules apply to them.

They were scapegoats for the absolute top who didn't want the truth to come out. I have a feeling all hell is gonna break loose if the "new" torture pics comes out. Apparently they are so bad politicians in the US and Iraq are almost in a panic to keep them consealed.

They were scapegoats but they were not innocent

No one held guns to their heads and forced them to do shit

They chose to do it instead of being their own person so they are partly guilty.

They are not the people that should be prosecuted the worst, but they are not innocent

All the soldiers, generals and agents will tell you they did it to get information about future terrorist attacks. And Cheney would tell you the same. They got all the ideas to the different kinds of abuse from the top. And when the top got in trouble they turned around and blamed it on "a few bad apples".
You can't blame every guy who carried out every part of a systematic abuse in all these prisons. You have to blame the people who ordered it. And the lawyers who somehow made it legal. If nobody gets blamed then torture will come back when the Republicans come to power again, perhabs in less than 4 years. And if it's okay to torture a foreign terrorist then it might be okay to torture a domestic one. And where does the line go? If you are charged with assault on an officer are you then a domestic terrorist? If you write an angry mail about the government are you then a terrorist and a threat to national security? And anybody with remotely dark skin could become a target for crazy right-wingers after that.

I'm just saying the whole thing is a slippery slope, and we shouldn't let them get away with it on the first place. Next time they come to office they'll make torture legal again and call it a policy difference, because nobody got punished for any of it. Looking forward like Obama proposes is a terrible idea in my opinion.

"If nobody gets blamed then torture will come back when the Republicans come to power again, perhabs in less than 4 years."

Grind, you're oblivious. Both major parties are the same in this country. They have slight differences here and there and a few social issues that they use to pit dumb people against each other on, but they're both the same in the end. Stop falling for this democrat vs republican bullshit, please.

I agree with Steve.


Regarding the soldiers who executed the torture:

These guys get brainwashed pretty good before they go out and fight. If you talk to a few veterans from previous wars like Vietnam, or Okinowa they will tell you what is required of the soldiers. They HAVE no choice but to obey their superiors regardless of what they are told to do. The military OWNS them; the soldier agreed to it when they filled out their paperwork, and received their Honor Code booklet. I'm sure the soldiers who did what they did are very remorseful and have some feelings of guilt.

Haterex: "Grind, you're oblivious. Both major parties are the same in this country. They have slight differences here and there and a few social issues that they use to pit dumb people against each other on, but they're both the same in the end. Stop falling for this democrat vs republican bullshit, please."

I don't know about all of that. I do know there are major policy differences between the parties. How could you explain the elections and obvious hatred which the politicians show towards eachother? It's all just a big cover-up to keep the ignorant people in the dark, huh? Like in The matrix, right?

Haterex, your argument sounds like a nice excuse to stop caring and stop asking questions. But that is probably just another part of the grand scheme isn't it?

Steve wrote:

2) How much do you know about what went on and on what scale? more than 99.999% of people

Alex Jones keeps mentioning that the unseen torture pictures include photos of soldiers sodomizing the kids of potential "terrorists" in front of them and other weird shit. Do you know of anything like that, and if not do you believe that, or think something equally inhumane went down? Jones never offers any direct proof or sources on any of these claims.

grind88 wrote:

Haterex: "Grind, you're oblivious. Both major parties are the same in this country. They have slight differences here and there and a few social issues that they use to pit dumb people against each other on, but they're both the same in the end. Stop falling for this democrat vs republican bullshit, please."

I don't know about all of that. I do know there are major policy differences between the parties. How could you explain the elections and obvious hatred which the politicians show towards eachother? It's all just a big cover-up to keep the ignorant people in the dark, huh? Like in The matrix, right?

the hatred is manufactured. It's like pro wrestling, they act like they hate each other in front of the public, and they literally vacation together in privacy. They're all in the same fucking club, you're naive if you don't see that. It kills me that people like you can't see that Obama is in the same exact elitist club as Bush and his poppa belong to.

I heard of rape in several articles. I honestly think politicians want to cover this up because the government had taken another step up the torture scale. Rape with or without the use of tools could be included and i've heard rumours about family members and even kids being dragged into the whole mess. I heard about an Iraqi politician saying that "Baghdad will burn" if these pictures come out.
But it's all speculation still, because as you know people won't react to witness statements. They will only react when they see the actual pictures. And boy would they react if any of these rumours are true.

Haterex: "the hatred is manufactured. It's like pro wrestling, they act like they hate each other in front of the public, and they literally vacation together in privacy. They're all in the same fucking club, you're naive if you don't see that. It kills me that people like you can't see that Obama is in the same exact elitist club as Bush and his poppa belong to."

You sound like a guy severely dissapointed with your government. What brought all this on?

grind88 wrote:

Haterex: "the hatred is manufactured. It's like pro wrestling, they act like they hate each other in front of the public, and they literally vacation together in privacy. They're all in the same fucking club, you're naive if you don't see that. It kills me that people like you can't see that Obama is in the same exact elitist club as Bush and his poppa belong to."

You sound like a guy severely dissapointed with your government. What brought all this on?

I had my eyes opened to the whole scheme a couple of years ago, started looking further and further down the rabbit hole and realized this whole 2 party system is a fucking farce. I used to cringe when people would use the old "stupid americans" stereotype, but the fact is, it's true. We have a 2 party system in collusion. Nether side gives a SHIT about our constitution, which is basically a contract between the government and the people of the United States. It's just a peice of paper to both sides and it's been going on for a long time now. Our empire will fall, as do all empires throughout history, we are no different. Both parties are dragging us down the same exact path, but they move in different patterns. I would suggest checking out a video called Freedom to Fascism sometime when you have an hour and a half to kill. You can find it on google video, youtube, all over the interent. It's a good start for showing you what the US Federal Government is truly all about in this day of age.

Alright, i'll watch it. If it turns out to be true i'll probably just give up too.

grind88 wrote:

Alright, i'll watch it. If it turns out to be true i'll probably just give up too.

There's no reason to give up. You just have to divert your energy towards fighting the true enemy.

Who? The banks?

grind88 wrote:

Who? The banks?

The federal reserve definitely holds responsibility to this mess. I agree with Ex regarding the 2 party system. The Republicrats are (and will) find a way to destroy this country.

I have lost hope when it comes to politics. Right now, I'm focusing on the economy, and how I can make myself more self sufficient. It's the least I could do right now. I'm waiting for inflation to take it's toll, and for the price of silver to reach $20.00/ounce. Then, I'll be set.

I found a bit of critique about this movie made by Jonathan R. Siegel, Professor of Law, George Washington University Law School:

"Aaron Russo has made a misleading, irresponsible film filled with utterly incorrect statements about the income tax. Don't be fooled. If you choose to believe and act upon his absurd conclusion that most Americans don't have to pay income taxes, you could end up paying extra to the government in interest and penalties and you could land yourself in jail.
I assume that a successful Hollywood producer like Aaron Russo has easy access to legal advice. If he really wanted to find out whether there is a law that requires people to pay income tax, all he needs to do is ask a real lawyer to research the matter. About an hour of research in the U.S. Code (or two minutes on Google) is all that would be necessary:

"The federal tax laws are contained in the Internal Revenue Code, also known as Title 26 of the United States Code, which is the compilation of laws passed by the Congress.
The Internal Revenue Code is the law that requires people to pay taxes.
The most important statutory provision with regard to income taxes is section one of the tax code, 26 U.S.C. § 1. This is the section that actually imposes the income tax."

After almost an hour of absurdly incorrect arguments about the income tax, Mr. Russo switches to arguments about the Federal Reserve system. I will just mention a couple of Mr. Russo's more outlandish points.
First, his opening shot. Russo asks "Why in the world would the American Government borrow money and pay fees on it, when it has the authority to make the money itself, interest free?"
This question demonstrates that Mr. Russo's ignorance of the monetary system matches his ignorance of income tax law. If the government met its needs for money by just printing more, the result would be massive inflation. Yes, the government could pay off the entire $9 trillion federal debt by just printing more money. But the resulting inflation would be enormous. Money is like anything else: if a lot more of it becomes available, its value goes down.

A story in the New York Times (July 31, 2006) reports that "Mr. Russo has more than $2 million of tax liens filed against him by the Internal Revenue Service, California and New York for unpaid federal and state taxes." If that is true, perhaps this film grows out of Mr. Russo's anger at the IRS for its enforcement of tax laws against him.

I actually realised that i had already seen the movie. And to say the least i am still not convinced by any of these ideas.

I hope this video is not all you are basing your statements on.

Obviously instead of watching the film you're spending time searching out ways to discredit it. Look, these people attacking Russo all believe in the system and are people who didn't see the problems we face coming. The people in FtF exposing the truth were warning us about these problems years in advance! lol watch the film and decide for yourself.

grind88 wrote:

I actually realised that i had already seen the movie. And to say the least i am still not convinced by any of these ideas.

I hope this video is not all you are basing your statements on.

okay then you're a fool. Keep following the people who are dragging us down. You just hate the truth, that's all there is to it. you're like a cancer patient who refuses to to accept the diagnosis. Choosing to not believe the disease doesn't make the disease go away.

Let's listen to a few more sceptics...

"Aaron Russo: The Rich Man's Michael Moore! by Scott Moore

There are a lot of stupid people in this world, and some of those stupid people are going to see America: From Freedom to Fascism and buy into its half-baked, hole-ridden, libertarian rhetoric about the alleged illegality of the federal income tax. And that's a shame, if for no other reason than it'll be a small defeat for logic.
(...)
Where the film really shits the bed, though, is when it tries to prove its point. By presenting half-baked ideas with the faux certainty that comes through sheer repetition and bending historical facts to fit his agenda, Russo manages to portray the legality of the income tax as something actually worthy of debate. Thing is, it's only up for debate among anti-tax conspiracy theorists who have anarchist, anti-social tendencies.

So, let me settle this: The 16th Amendment of the US Constitution gives Congress the power to impose an income tax, and Congress delegated that authority to the IRS. It's been upheld by numerous Supreme Court cases—including some that have been twisted by Russo and his "tax honesty" cohorts.

And since the filmmaker himself doesn't mention it, I will: Russo has $2 million in tax liens with the IRS. Kinda makes you question his impartiality."

alright then! We will continue to follow the people who got us into this mess! We've already established you're no fan of truth. I have ZERO reason to believe you've actually watched the film. I seriously doubt you "forgot" you'd already seen it. You went straight to the wolves in sheeps clothing for their opinions and decided the movie had no merits.

I think you should stop watching entertainment videos and start worrying about real politics, so maybe one day you can make a difference.

I'll repeat, your argument about the "rotten system" sounds like a nice excuse to stop caring and stop asking questions. If everyone thought like that we would certainly be lost.

grind88 wrote:

I think you should stop watching entertainment videos and start worrying about real politics, so maybe one day you can make a difference.

I'll repeat, your argument about the "rotten system" sounds like a nice excuse to stop caring and stop asking questions. If everyone thought like that we would certainly be lost.

Dumbass, I don't base all my views off of one movie, this is just one of a few out there. I listen to people who SAW THESE PROBLEMS COMING, get that through your head, and address THAT! You continue to believe the people who got us into this mess are going to to save us from it! Who needs to get serious?? I think it might be you dumbfuck

Thank you sir, for all your nice compliments. It shows character.

"I'll repeat, your argument about the "rotten system" sounds like a nice excuse to stop caring and stop asking questions. If everyone thought like that we would certainly be lost."


WTF is wrong with you, idiot??? I never suggested we just give up and die. I'm saying let's get back to a sensible approach. Meaning we quit fucking up and doing the wrong things!!! The answers aren't easy, the solutions are going to to hurt for a while. At least my side is intersted in healing our problem instead of prolonging its death!

grind88 wrote:

Thank you sir, for all your nice compliments. It shows character.

I have no interest in having a civil debate with someone who has no interest in looking at more than 1 solution. You believe in an unrealistic solution, and have no interest in looking at other views. You're hopeless.

So what is your solution?

Damn! Now i'm actually interested. Looks like Obama really needs to stop those bail-outs. I'll have to look a bit more into all of this. I knew something had to be wrong in that financial system for it to crack like that, but ...damn!

Well, since the show only aired yesterday i hope some more people in the press will comment on this interview and dig up some facts. I'd have to say i'm rather stunned about this financial shit right now...

Pete Schiff has been saying these things for years, this isn't anything new, but feel free to get a second opinion, but the fact is he's right.

grind88 wrote:

Damn! Now i'm actually interested. Looks like Obama really needs to stop those bail-outs. I'll have to look a bit more into all of this. I knew something had to be wrong in that financial system for it to crack like that, but ...damn!

Well, since the show only aired yesterday i hope some more people in the press will comment on this interview and dig up some facts. I'd have to say i'm rather stunned about this financial shit right now...

Regarding the bailouts. That really made me nervous when Obama started bailing out all those companies. How is somebody going to give another person money when they don't have any to begin with?? It's the same as trying to pay off credit card debt with a credit card. It's impossible to do so. While I don't support the bailouts, I can't do anything but sit and watch to see what's going to happen next. In the mean time, I'm working on creating a local (self sufficient) system that will insure that I have what I need to survive the hard times.

~ by the way, the recession is over according to all the talking heads, and "news sources". What a joke!!! They act ike everybody is going to start buying cars again, and General Motors is going to say "PSYCHE!! we were just playing about our bankruptcy. Yall can come back to work again!", as if the economy will bounce back in one day. GTFOH with that mess.

Get ready. The next big crash will come in the middle of July. We'll get another wave of home forclosures, stocks will tank again, and unemployment will rise.

I love the recession. Love it. Make 'em sweat.


As for soldiers being brainwashed, that's BS a. scott. Nobody believes anything they don't want to believe, and we aren't overtly brainwashed, its subliminally. anyone can refuse orders, its just refusal of certain orders will get you killed, hurt, or fired.

SRP, you make it seem like it would have been easy for those men and women to refuse to torture...while they could have refused, it would have likely put their lives in great danger, as people would kill to cover these things up, and if you're not part of the team, you lose the trust of your fellow soldiers, and that's how friendly fire incidents happen...

I have my doubts about the coming af a new world order and about global governance which seems to be at the heart of many conspiracy theories.
I am still trying to make my mind up about the federal reserve and about the possibility of the two parties actually working in the same direction. If they basically want to screw the people why are they constantly bitching about how much the government should be acting and spending? Maybe the collapse IS just about excessive greed. I'm not ruling out any conspiracies, but i'm saying i'm gonna need more proof and i'll look into it.

I watched the Zeitgeist movies too, but i can't just buy into a story even though it's well put together.

Here's the whole problem in a debate like this: It's easy to dismiss all critique of these conspiracy thoughts because "those people being critiqal are just part of the whole scam as well". Or maybe they are part of the mass media system owned by the men behind the NWO. Then you can't really have a debate about it because then every expert is also just another puppet of the bigger New World Order plot. And if you question a conspiracy theory you are just being a puppet as well, just doing what they want you to do. That pretty much closes the debate once again.

I'm definately not ruling anything out yet ...i'm just saying...let's calm down a bit.

But i'm looking more into the thoughts of Ron Paul right now. He actually makes a whole lotta sense on the economy. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I told ya'll grind was a douche.

Steve wrote:

I love the recession. Love it. Make 'em sweat.


As for soldiers being brainwashed, that's BS a. scott. Nobody believes anything they don't want to believe, and we aren't overtly brainwashed, its subliminally. anyone can refuse orders, its just refusal of certain orders will get you killed, hurt, or fired.

SRP, you make it seem like it would have been easy for those men and women to refuse to torture...while they could have refused, it would have likely put their lives in great danger, as people would kill to cover these things up, and if you're not part of the team, you lose the trust of your fellow soldiers, and that's how friendly fire incidents happen...

If they aren't brainwashed like you said, then what orders can they refuse, and how will their decision guarantee whether they can keep their job or not?

Besides, aren't you in the Navy? Navy people do get the chance to travel, but I'm curious, when was the last time the Navy was on the front line, and when were seaman put in a situation like the soldiers who were ordered to inflict torture on people?

Damn, this ugly ass bitch tryin' to put me on blast for being in the Navy, and talk some shit about brainwashing when lil Utah ass Mormom ho ain't know shit about it. Ever heard of Navy SEALs? Ever heard of individual augmentees (we have 10-15,000 deployed right now Navy alone)? Ever hear of SEABEEs? Ever hear of MAs? You are stupid as fuck talking that shit, and that's just a small part of the Sailors over there.

Yo A. Scott, sorry for my harsh reply up there....I just get heated when people talk shit about stuff they don't know when it comes to the military. Yeah Army taking the majority of the casualties but I've had a lot of people I know out there lose a leg, lose a foot, or get killed. Some people I've served with personally, people I consider brothers out there die man...in the Navy. So sorry I got a little emotional about that.

Steve wrote:

Damn, this ugly ass bitch tryin' to put me on blast for being in the Navy, and talk some shit about brainwashing when lil Utah ass Mormom ho ain't know shit about it. Ever heard of Navy SEALs? Ever heard of individual augmentees (we have 10-15,000 deployed right now Navy alone)? Ever hear of SEABEEs? Ever hear of MAs? You are stupid as fuck talking that shit, and that's just a small part of the Sailors over there.

You don't even fucking know me like that, so don't even go there. Every time somebody says something you don't like you my space their page just to talk shit about them. That is a bitch move right there. Only stupid little girls do stuff like that. Where the hell do you get off talking out of your ass like that about me. Fuck you steve!! Second, I am not even Mormon. I don't have a religion. Don't ever insult me like that....EVER! UGLY!!!!??? At least I have enough balls to put my picture up on my site, and who cares if you think I'm ugly. I wasn't put on this earth for YOUR ASS! Where the hell is YOUR picture anyway????? You got something to hide??? All you do is talk shit about what other people say, and when you don't like what they say, you either delete their profile like a true bitch, or insult them personally. According to you, everybody is stupid, except you.

I have been civil to you and your crazy ass rants up until now. How about you take your delusional ass elsewhere with all of that bullshit, and learn to actually communicate with people WITHOUT insulting people personally because they don't agree with you, you childish slice of shit!