NYC Is NOT The GOAT Reason #1

New York has not been musically innovative in hip hop since the advent of Rawkus records (at best, but some would argue Anticon did it first...and they're a west coast label).

The last good musical innovation from NYC in hip hop was obviously El-P's contributions to Funcrusher Plus in 1999. Prior to that, I'd say the last thing that really impacted hip hop musically was most likely Rza's re-introduction to hip hop 6 years prior on Enter The 36 Chambers. Before that, well...I can't think of much before the Marley Marl era. Simply put, it is very few and far between the "birthplace of hip hop" gives us anything other than standard fare. There are no more chance takers, their scene is comprised of followers (Fat Joe, D Block, G Unit, Dipset), stubborn old men who refuse to adapt with the times (KRS One, Wu Tang, Duck Down Records, DITC), and loud lukewarm newcomers who cut their teeth giving music away for free but for some reason can't create anything worth buying (read: their ENTIRE mixtape scene). Honestly, the fact that 99% of the east coast tries so hard to ignore crews like DMS, La Coka Nostra, AOTP, Demigodz, and The Weathermen speaks volumes of how stagnant hip hop has become in NYC. Mike Ladd gets nary a mention when people talk about dope NYC hip hop, but somehow they have all the praise in the world for crews that do little more than give the wheel another spin. Even Rakim has been tamed from a guy that used to be setting trends for an entire culture, is now denegrated into a typical (but still dope) battle mc riding soul samples for the sake or riding soul samples. At least Raekwon has learned to reach out.

I have to say this is a pretty good reason... I know this is just to humor powell, but I'm sure you, like all of us, get your music from all over the place, so clearly it doesn't matter what region is the GOAT or any of that foolishness.

I will say I have been pretty disappointed in a lot of my old favs for the same reasons you stated - CNN, Mobb Deep, etc. I will say DOOM has brought some innovation though in that time.

Your reason is flawed, because you cannot base one decade on why a region isn't the GOAT.

It's pretty much common knowledge that the 2000's was the weakest decade for hip-hop by far. You saw two Golden Age periods during the 80's and 90's, and both were spearheaded by the East even though the West Coast was instrumental in the second golden age as well.

What region has been innovative this decade though really?? And why hasn't said innovation resulted in multiple classics?? The innovation in the 80's and 90's resulted in countless classics. Not so much for the last decade.

Some will say that the South is on top right now, but for every good artist you've got in the South you've got 5 wack ones so that throws that logic out the window.

Back in the days, you used to hear elite rappers on the radio. That's not so much the case anymore. You rarely hear Slaughterhouse on the radio, or even Wu-Tang for that matter, but you'll hear wack ass Young Money 24-7.

NYC is the GOAT because they have the longest and most illustrious track record of releasing classic material. Just like the Yankees have won the most World Series, the East has released the most classics.

i agree with some of that but theres still innovation coming from there and everywhere else...

i.e: Cold Vein in 2001, Doom in all of the 2000's, La Coka Nostra

you can make a similar argument to other regions though...especially for mainstream artists

You can't micro analyze one decade without doing the same to the others. You yourself said that you think Ready To Die brought the focus back to the east coast... so presumably the west dominated a good portion of the 1990s... and the focus wasn't purely east coast for the latter half of the decade. The east did not clearly dominate or drop the most classics during that time. The first decade? That's akin to saying the yankees won the most world series and there was only one team to win the world series. Sure, in its infancy the rap world was focused around NYC and they dropped most of the classics during that era... is that really impressive?

Saint Killa wrote:

I have to say this is a pretty good reason... I know this is just to humor powell, but I'm sure you, like all of us, get your music from all over the place, so clearly it doesn't matter what region is the GOAT or any of that foolishness.

I will say I have been pretty disappointed in a lot of my old favs for the same reasons you stated - CNN, Mobb Deep, etc. I will say DOOM has brought some innovation though in that time.

Product of the 80's is fuckin dope

Hey KJ, if you read a little closer, what I said was that NY averages one innovation a decade. Mantronix, Marley Marl, Rza, Def Jux/MF Doom/Mike Ladd/Anti Pop Consortium...that's all you got. You have one style of hip hop. That's a major reason NYC isn't the greatest. And I'll analyze your "track record" another day. Believe me, it's not as good as you think it is.

And I'm not arguing NYC doesn't have it's place or that "product of the 80's" isn't dope. It's the "fact" that NYC isn't even close to the Greatest of anything that I'm arguing. SRP had a fine point that Mobb Deep hasn't done anything to reinvent themselves and are basically spitting the same shit over the same style of beats they did in 95.

Also, Cold Vein was produced by El-P fool. MF Doom is different, but not innovative. He's doing the same shit DJ Shadow and Peanut Butter Wolf did almost 20 years ago.

I don't know... doom was an old school cat who was unsuccessful and reinvented himself completely. I'm not saying a mask makes him innovative, but his early shit was some next level shit IMO and his production is definitely innovative. I think you have to point to DOOM when you give credit to who sparked the wave of old school rappers making a comeback this decade.

N3R0 wrote:

Hey KJ, if you read a little closer, what I said was that NY averages one innovation a decade. Mantronix, Marley Marl, Rza, Def Jux/MF Doom/Mike Ladd/Anti Pop Consortium...that's all you got. You have one style of hip hop. That's a major reason NYC isn't the greatest. And I'll analyze your "track record" another day. Believe me, it's not as good as you think it is.

So you're saying Premier, Prince Paul, Pete Rock, DITC weren't innovative??

Go ahead and analyze all you want. You're fighting a losing battle.

KJ Styles wrote:

N3R0 wrote:

Hey KJ, if you read a little closer, what I said was that NY averages one innovation a decade. Mantronix, Marley Marl, Rza, Def Jux/MF Doom/Mike Ladd/Anti Pop Consortium...that's all you got. You have one style of hip hop. That's a major reason NYC isn't the greatest. And I'll analyze your "track record" another day. Believe me, it's not as good as you think it is.

So you're saying Premier, Prince Paul, Pete Rock, DITC weren't innovative??

Go ahead and analyze all you want. You're fighting a losing battle.

None of those guys has been innovative this decade...

Doom's production is definitely innovative and his rhyme style is different for sure

Premier is from Texas moron.

Prince Paul was innovative in the early 90's.

Pete Rock and DITC did nothing new.

DOOM's production is nothing new, again, and his rhyme style isn't either. It's just different, but nothing Kool Keith, Wu, etc etc etc haven't done before and better.

"The last good musical innovation from NYC in hip hop was obviously El-P's contributions to Funcrusher Plus in 1999. "




1)When your reason starts off with that BULLSHIT you've already defeated yourself...lol

MF Doom
Pete Rock
Masta Ace
Nas
Ghostface
Jay-Z
Havoc
Alchemist
Q-Tip

are just a few examples IN MY OPINION of some new innovative heads post 2000 out of the NYC area...innovation didn't just end with EL-P in 1999...that sounds just off to me..but again this part of the equation is my opinion on that part of what you said.


" Prior to that, I'd say the last thing that really impacted hip hop musically was most likely Rza's re-introduction to hip hop 6 years prior on Enter The 36 Chambers.Before that, well...I can't think of much before the Marley Marl era. Simply put, it is very few and far between the "birthplace of hip hop" gives us anything other than standard fare."


COMPLETELY WRONG....what made those two golden ages so unique was that NO one really sounded like anyone else...that was one of the major reasons why shit was special N3RO...study up my dude

Big Daddy Kane
LL Cool J
BDP
Slick Rick
Brand Nubian
Public Enemy
Pete Rock And CL Smooth
Nas
A Tribe Called Quest
Heavy D And The Boyz
Nice And Smooth
Gangstarr
Kool G Rap and Polo
Eric B And Rakim
The Fresh Prince And Jazzy Jeff
Wu-Tang Clan
Ultramagnetic MC's
Main Source
De La Soul
X-Clan
Just-Ice
Camp Lo
Biggie Smalls
Run-D.M.C.
Special Ed
Stetsasonic


I mean I could keep right on going but NONE of these emcees/groups sounded like the other...everyone had their OWN unique lane, and everyone wanted to be different from the other emcee/group...innovation was at an all-time high...you don't believe me?? then go back and listen to each and everyone of these emcees/gorups I just listed as examples and tell me what you hear...innovation and style are lacking today in major ways...anybody that has been listening to hip-hop over 20 years can tell you this man....go listen to those examples again man...refresh yourself to those eras....because NYC was dominating them..EASILY! I'm not saying this to put down another region...I'm saying it because it was a FACT....look at just those few examples I listed and tell em I'm wrong N3RO or anyone else who feels like chiming in...


"There are no more chance takers, their scene is comprised of followers (Fat Joe, D Block, G Unit, Dipset), stubborn old men who refuse to adapt with the times (KRS One, Wu Tang, Duck Down Records, DITC)"


Adapt to what times N3RO?? to hip-hop in 2010?? hip-hop in 2010 is not horrible N3RO but it is NOWHERE near as good as it used to be man...are you suggesting that it is?? I just want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly man..so please explain where your going with this..

you said "adapt" to the times..but why should they when these times OVERALL are pretty damn WACK man?? please FULLY explain what you meant by that comment man, thanks!




Also, I'm waiting patiently for reason number two....oh and also N3RO don't forget to tell me what region is the all-time hip-hop GOAT...and tell me why that is too please, thanks!

N3R0 wrote:

Premier is from Texas moron.

Prince Paul was innovative in the early 90's.

Pete Rock and DITC did nothing new.

Umm N3RO...Preemo is from Texas..this is a FACT...but he has not lived there nor repped that area EVER since becoming a hip-hop legend(he hasn't lived there since the early to mid 80's and Preemo is now about 43 years old) so let's NOT claim him as being a rep of Texas...Preemo is one the sounds of NYC hip-hop..he learned hip-hop in NYC and has always repped/adopted Brooklyn as his hometown or at least the area he reps..this too is a FACT

Saint Killa wrote:

You can't micro analyze one decade without doing the same to the others. You yourself said that you think Ready To Die brought the focus back to the east coast... so presumably the west dominated a good portion of the 1990s... and the focus wasn't purely east coast for the latter half of the decade. The east did not clearly dominate or drop the most classics during that time. The first decade? That's akin to saying the yankees won the most world series and there was only one team to win the world series. Sure, in its infancy the rap world was focused around NYC and they dropped most of the classics during that era... is that really impressive?

Ready To Die debuted in 1994, so the West was dominant from 1990-93 and Ice Cube was arguably the best MC in the game at the time. The mid-90's saw the South emerge as a major player in hip-hop and even the Midwest got a little shine. While the focus wasn't solely East Coast, it STILL produced the most classics of any region in the 90's.

Basically, it's like Burger King adding more awesome sandwiches to their menu, but the Whopper is still the best thing they've got. Same goes with Hip Hop and the East Coast.

1.EAST
2.WEST
3.SOUTH
4.MIDWEST

..This is coming from a Southern Californian...

N3R0 wrote:

Premier is from Texas moron.

Prince Paul was innovative in the early 90's.

Pete Rock and DITC did nothing new.

Premier was born in Texas but he REPRESENTS NYC, retard!!!

Prince Paul was innovative THROUGHOUT the 90's. He made stars out of virtually everyone he worked with.

Pete Rock is the ultimate smooth producer. Before him, only Teddy Riley (who isn't solely a hip-hop producer) had a more prolific track record working with mellow MC's.

DITC were the ones who proved that underground MC's CAN in fact blow up and obtain mass appeal. If it wasn't for DITC, there probably would have never been a Rawkus or Koch Records.

Got any more Dick Dastardly??

D.Powell wrote:

N3R0 wrote:

Premier is from Texas moron.

Prince Paul was innovative in the early 90's.

Pete Rock and DITC did nothing new.

Umm N3RO...Preemo is from Texas..this is a FACT...but he has not lived there nor repped that area EVER since becoming a hip-hop legend(he hasn't lived there since the early to mid 80's and Preemo is now about 43 years old) so let's NOT claim him as being a rep of Texas...Preemo is one the sounds of NYC hip-hop..he learned hip-hop in NYC and has always repped/adopted Brooklyn as his hometown or at least the area he reps..this too is a FACT

Powell, that is just backwards logic. Preemo being from Texas but being the originator of what is considered one of the most popular "east" coast sounds and most imitated production styles is proof that no one reason is GOAT. It's not where you're from, it's where you're at right? Would Premier have been any less dope had he stayed in Texas? And let's not forget Guru is from Boston. They are proof positive that this whole regional GOAT concept is silly.

It's only logical that acts from all over the country would migrate to the most popular city for hip-hop, just like all actors migrate to hollywood.

This "innovation" you speak of needs to consist of more than just different voices. And it's only natural that that early on innovation is easier to come about.

The Homie, Acrid wrote:

1.EAST
2.WEST
3.SOUTH
4.MIDWEST

..This is coming from a Southern Californian...

CO-FUCKING SIGN!!!! Thank you Acrid

DITC showing underground mc's can blow up isn't innovation.

Well KJ and Powell are not countering the point... the point is that THIS decade that just passed had little innovation from NYC. KJ keeps babbling on about 20 years ago and Powell just tries to counter by talking about the past.

You and me both know they are full of shit N3ro, so none of this even matters, but in a real discussion it would be a valid point.

Saint Killa wrote:

You can't micro analyze one decade without doing the same to the others. You yourself said that you think Ready To Die brought the focus back to the east coast... so presumably the west dominated a good portion of the 1990s... and the focus wasn't purely east coast for the latter half of the decade. The east did not clearly dominate or drop the most classics during that time. The first decade? That's akin to saying the yankees won the most world series and there was only one team to win the world series. Sure, in its infancy the rap world was focused around NYC and they dropped most of the classics during that era... is that really impressive?

Your WRONG SRP....lol and here's proof...READ it man...the west DID NOT dominate the 1990's..lol...they had market share...but the EAST/NYC was still hitting the hardest!

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_50_hip_hop_albums_of_1990/


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_75_hip_hop_albums_of_1991/


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_100_hip_hop_albums_of_1992/


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_125_hip_hop_albums_of_1993/


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_125_hip_hop_albums_of_1994


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_150_hip_hop_albums_of_1995


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_125_hip_hop_albums_of_1996


http://rateyourmusic.com/list/diction/the_top_100_hip_hop_albums_of_1997


The west had GOOD market share and the South and Midwest also began to come up as two very strong regions back then, but the 90's OVERALL was owned by NYC/the east coast..just like the 80's

Post 2000 has been owned by the SOUTH, and OVERALL this has been the WORSE period in the history of hip-hop music

Every relevant hip-hop album released during the 90's is listed up above SRP...go take a good look and holla back at me....

Saint Killa wrote:

Well KJ and Powell are not countering the point... the point is that THIS decade that just passed had little innovation from NYC. KJ keeps babbling on about 20 years ago and Powell just tries to counter by talking about the past.

You and me both know they are full of shit N3ro, so none of this even matters, but in a real discussion it would be a valid point.

This has been the worse decade hip-hop has ever seen in it's existence SRP...so you sound completely STUPID man and the sad thing about all of that is you know you sound STUPID...lol..dumb ass!

Anyway, this went south faster than I'd hoped. Look up the meaning of innovation guys, then try showing me where the east coast has been innovative more than 4-5 times. Show me more than 2-3 "sounds" the east coast is known for.

N3R0 wrote:

Hey KJ, if you read a little closer, what I said was that NY averages one innovation a decade. Mantronix, Marley Marl, Rza, Def Jux/MF Doom/Mike Ladd/Anti Pop Consortium...that's all you got. You have one style of hip hop. That's a major reason NYC isn't the greatest. And I'll analyze your "track record" another day. Believe me, it's not as good as you think it is.

I just listed over 20 groups/emcees from NYC with completely different styles...where the FUCK have you been?? again this makes no sense whatsoever man...stop being stubborn and acknowledge the facts....no big deal man...maybe one day Iowa will actually contribute to the hip-hop landscape...we'll see but as of right now...NYC IS THE GOAT of hip-hop of all-time...plain and simple..no big deal..get over it man!

The Homie, Acrid wrote:

1.EAST
2.WEST
3.SOUTH
4.MIDWEST

..This is coming from a Southern Californian...

Acrid NUFF RESPECT for being a man about this and keeping it real...it's appreciated man!

Different styles...like "old school" and "boom bap" and "conscious" and "sample heavy with straight forward battle lyrics". Yeah, TOTALLY different. You can't tell those cats are from the same area AT ALL.

Saint Killa wrote:

D.Powell wrote:

N3R0 wrote:

Premier is from Texas moron.

Prince Paul was innovative in the early 90's.

Pete Rock and DITC did nothing new.

Umm N3RO...Preemo is from Texas..this is a FACT...but he has not lived there nor repped that area EVER since becoming a hip-hop legend(he hasn't lived there since the early to mid 80's and Preemo is now about 43 years old) so let's NOT claim him as being a rep of Texas...Preemo is one the sounds of NYC hip-hop..he learned hip-hop in NYC and has always repped/adopted Brooklyn as his hometown or at least the area he reps..this too is a FACT

Powell, that is just backwards logic. Preemo being from Texas but being the originator of what is considered one of the most popular "east" coast sounds and most imitated production styles is proof that no one reason is GOAT. It's not where you're from, it's where you're at right? Would Premier have been any less dope had he stayed in Texas? And let's not forget Guru is from Boston. They are proof positive that this whole regional GOAT concept is silly.

It's only logical that acts from all over the country would migrate to the most popular city for hip-hop, just like all actors migrate to hollywood.

This "innovation" you speak of needs to consist of more than just different voices. And it's only natural that that early on innovation is easier to come about.

SRP have you EVER seen either Guru or Preemo rep BOSTON and TEX-ASS?? "Never taking shorts cause BROOKLYN'S the Boro"...have you ever heard those words SRP...


My dude you sound dumb and dumber everytime you fuckin speak man...it's not about migration dumb ass..it's about culture...it's about learning....NYC is that place man...it's okay no big deal SRP...get the fuck over it!

N3RO what is the NUMBER ONE hip-hop region of all-time?? and please give me the reasons why it is just that!

Saint Killa wrote:

Well KJ and Powell are not countering the point... the point is that THIS decade that just passed had little innovation from NYC. KJ keeps babbling on about 20 years ago and Powell just tries to counter by talking about the past.

You and me both know they are full of shit N3ro, so none of this even matters, but in a real discussion it would be a valid point.

Dude, you're full of shit. But most people here with clear vision already know that.

Jeff's logic is FLAWED because he's saying that NYC isn't the GOAT because of what happened this decade.

Again, who really was innovative this decade? And why didn't said innovation result in as many classics as the 80's and 90's? Why? Because this was an inferior decade in hip-hop.

Most of the classics in this decade were by underground artists, and only a select few of them really brought new styles to hip-hop. Eminem has been innovative, but even he would admit that the Midwest is the weakest region in hip-hop.

To decide which region has been the best, you've got to throw into consideration who's been the best throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY of the rap game, not just the last ten years. And really, being the best in a weak decade is like being the nicest guy in prison, it's not really an honor at all.

If NYC was sooooo dope... shouldn't they have taken this week decade as an opportunity to dominate... lead the culture... bring innovation? Or are we now saying that when one person is being a loser that is an acceptable excuse for everyone?

hey what has the west coast done in the 2000's that was innovative. fuck the souths new shit seems to all be the same. you could say the same thing about any region south, east, wesst, mid west. thats why i see this as a pointless thread because anyone could make the same case for any area.

Saint Killa wrote:

If NYC was sooooo dope... shouldn't they have taken this week decade as an opportunity to dominate... lead the culture... bring innovation? Or are we now saying that when one person is being a loser that is an acceptable excuse for everyone?

It's DOMINATED and lead the culture for the last two decades.

I blame hip-hop's decline this decade on A&R guys pushing commercial guys with limited talent more than anything else.

You can't blame the East for lack of innovation this decade more than any other region.

Cory wrote:

hey what has the west coast done in the 2000's that was innovative. fuck the souths new shit seems to all be the same. you could say the same thing about any region south, east, wesst, mid west. thats why i see this as a pointless thread because anyone could make the same case for any area.

What has the West done post-2000 that they didn't do in the early 90's though? An argument can be made for Jurassic 5 but that's about it.

How do you determine domination?

KJ Styles wrote:

Cory wrote:

hey what has the west coast done in the 2000's that was innovative. fuck the souths new shit seems to all be the same. you could say the same thing about any region south, east, wesst, mid west. thats why i see this as a pointless thread because anyone could make the same case for any area.

What has the West done post-2000 that they didn't do in the early 90's though? An argument can be made for Jurassic 5 but that's about it.

no kj thats what im saying. J5 was around before 2000 but does it really matter. the east coast, west coast, south and mid west have all had someone that did something different, but its irrelvant

T. Myers wrote:

How do you determine domination?

There's a ton of things that I take into consideration, but the biggest ones are most GOAT MC's and most classic albums.

What makes them GOAT Mc's and classic albums?

KJ Styles wrote:

Saint Killa wrote:

If NYC was sooooo dope... shouldn't they have taken this week decade as an opportunity to dominate... lead the culture... bring innovation? Or are we now saying that when one person is being a loser that is an acceptable excuse for everyone?

It's DOMINATED and lead the culture for the last two decades.

I blame hip-hop's decline this decade on A&R guys pushing commercial guys with limited talent more than anything else.

You can't blame the East for lack of innovation this decade more than any other region.

KJ, that was an intelligent comment and I commend you for it. I completely agree, and honestly I'm not that down on the east coast, I just get sick of people rambling how great it is. Until you can admit that the east is as equal as other regions, the reasons will continue.

Cory wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

Cory wrote:

hey what has the west coast done in the 2000's that was innovative. fuck the souths new shit seems to all be the same. you could say the same thing about any region south, east, wesst, mid west. thats why i see this as a pointless thread because anyone could make the same case for any area.

What has the West done post-2000 that they didn't do in the early 90's though? An argument can be made for Jurassic 5 but that's about it.

no kj thats what im saying. J5 was around before 2000 but does it really matter. the east coast, west coast, south and mid west have all had someone that did something different, but its irrelvant

You're right Cory, but the point of this thread is that Jeff is challenging Powell's statement that the East is the GOAT region of hip-hop, and Jeff's trying to prove him wrong. But like Dick Dastardly and Wile E. Coyote, he's gonna fail. This will be a fun series of threads

KJ likes to find excuses to say the word dick...

No I've already succeeded because between you, there's one comment of merit, and it was conceding my point.

N3R0 wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

Saint Killa wrote:

If NYC was sooooo dope... shouldn't they have taken this week decade as an opportunity to dominate... lead the culture... bring innovation? Or are we now saying that when one person is being a loser that is an acceptable excuse for everyone?

It's DOMINATED and lead the culture for the last two decades.

I blame hip-hop's decline this decade on A&R guys pushing commercial guys with limited talent more than anything else.

You can't blame the East for lack of innovation this decade more than any other region.

KJ, that was an intelligent comment and I commend you for it. I completely agree, and honestly I'm not that down on the east coast, I just get sick of people rambling how great it is. Until you can admit that the east is as equal as other regions, the reasons will continue.

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate you recognizing that. The thing you need to ultimately realize though is that neither me nor Powell are knocking other regions, we just believe that the East has been the strongest region of hip-hop since it's inception as a genre.

Saint Killa wrote:

KJ likes to find excuses to say the word dick...

Dick Dastardly is a cartoon character

KJ Styles wrote:

N3R0 wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

Saint Killa wrote:

If NYC was sooooo dope... shouldn't they have taken this week decade as an opportunity to dominate... lead the culture... bring innovation? Or are we now saying that when one person is being a loser that is an acceptable excuse for everyone?

It's DOMINATED and lead the culture for the last two decades.

I blame hip-hop's decline this decade on A&R guys pushing commercial guys with limited talent more than anything else.

You can't blame the East for lack of innovation this decade more than any other region.

KJ, that was an intelligent comment and I commend you for it. I completely agree, and honestly I'm not that down on the east coast, I just get sick of people rambling how great it is. Until you can admit that the east is as equal as other regions, the reasons will continue.

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate you recognizing that. The thing you need to ultimately realize though is that neither me nor Powell are knocking other regions, we just believe that the East has been the strongest region of hip-hop since it's inception as a genre.

Believing it to be the best, is wholely different than saying that it is a fact.

i would have to say canada is the goat

Canada produces some dope stuff.