100 Greastest Nominee Day 22

^ yea Rza hasnt produced a Gza album since Liquid Swords and it hasnt mattred (even though he never matched what he did on liquid swords)

but people arent realizing that Pete Rock AND CL Smooth THE GROUP was voted in the top 50, not just CL Smooth the MC, as a group they are top 50 no doubt so i dont know why people are making such an argument by saying "well CL Smooth is in the top 50"....hes only there as part of a group

i havent heard American Me yet but heard good things

Pounds is the only person in the history of mankind to call CL Smooth's solo a classic.

I voted GZA top 100 - he is one of my favorite Wu members, but is behind Rza and Ghost. He is close with Meth, but he has only one undeniable classic - though the rest of his career is ver solid.

Norf needs to just get over the hypocrisy and vote how he wants.

People will talk shit and get upset when people vote in a way they don't want them too and they will set 1000 double standards to try to sway people to vote a certain way and then they will break those same standards when convenient.

Like Killer Mike said - That's Life.

Slang, i'm not arguing that Pete Rock and CL Smooth belong in the top 50/100, but there are people who love CL Smooth, but then they say that GZA NEEDS the great production. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, i don't know what is. I'm never one to tell people how to pick their favorites, but at least try to look at things without blinders on. I think it's safe to assume the majority would prefer GZA over CL Smooth when Pete Rock and RZA have been removed from the equation.

Grandmasters is proof of that...

i agree Terry, especially after CL Smooth went on basically a 15 year hiatus after the Main Ingredient

I think the perception of GZA's impact might have a lot to do with what rappers you listen to. Speaking as someone who listens to a lot of underground rap, I hear GZA's influence all over the place. Liquid Swords, for anyone interested in lyricism, is one of those landmark albums that was looked to as a measuring stick by so many people coming after.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Pounds is the only person in the history of mankind to call CL Smooth's solo a classic.

I voted GZA top 100 - he is one of my favorite Wu members, but is behind Rza and Ghost. He is close with Meth, but he has only one undeniable classic - though the rest of his career is ver solid.

Norf needs to just get over the hypocrisy and vote how he wants.

People will talk shit and get upset when people vote in a way they don't want them too and they will set 1000 double standards to try to sway people to vote a certain way and then they will break those same standards when convenient.

Like Killer Mike said - That's Life.

Well here's 3 more for ya. I know ctrx gives it a 4.5. But I suppose you don't consider these actual "people", so just hate on.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Me-C-L-Smooth/dp/B000GYHRFQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1242066360&sr=8-7

T. Myers wrote:

Slang, i'm not arguing that Pete Rock and CL Smooth belong in the top 50/100, but there are people who love CL Smooth, but then they say that GZA NEEDS the great production. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, i don't know what is. I'm never one to tell people how to pick their favorites, but at least try to look at things without blinders on. I think it's safe to assume the majority would prefer GZA over CL Smooth when Pete Rock and RZA have been removed from the equation.

People have their favorites as I'm sure you do too. I feel CL Smooth is a much better rapper - straight up - than GZA is. You may not agree, but I could care less really. No kettle involved. I was articulating my opinion. GZA does need to have the right production for ME to fully enjoy his work.

Those reviews don't really help your case Pounds - just more blind fanboys. It is no hate though - just the facts that you overrate CL Smooth - haters underrate them - so the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Those reviews don't really help your case Pounds - just more blind fanboys. It is no hate though - just the facts that you overrate CL Smooth - haters underrate them - so the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

You said "no person" calls it a classic. I was just showing you that you were wrong about that, aside from talking to others who agree. I realize CL doesn't have the long career to prove his presence, so obviously he falls in the middle. I'm sure most of your favorite rappers fall in the middle too, SRP. If you think otherwise you're just as much of a blind fanboy as the next.

Nah, not really...

Most people can admit CL Smooth is an average to good rapper with a great producer.

I can admit the deficiencies in my favorite, but for certain reasons I don't believe they fall in the middle...

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Nah, not really...

Yeah, really. We disagree obviously

Nah, not really.

I was answering to me being a blind fanboy - which I am not. And we don't disagree. I think you are a blind fan boy towards CL Smooth and I don't consider us disagreeing since I see you actions as agreeing with that assessment.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Nah, not really.

I was answering to me being a blind fanboy - which I am not. And we don't disagree. I think you are a blind fan boy towards CL Smooth and I don't consider us disagreeing since I see you actions as agreeing with that assessment.

Here's an example - Mac Dre - no way this dude is anywhere near the skill level of CL. I'm not blind to anything. His main fault is not dropping enough material IMO. He was gone from the game too long. His work with Pete Rock is widely considered to be classic material - both albums. Go ahead and play favorites between the two, but they were an airtight duo.

Pete Rock made the duo. Without his production they would have been forgotten in the 1990s and might have never dropped a second album.

Anyone can see that except the blind fan boy.

And no one is really trying to diss your boy. All Myers was asking is how you could not see or admit that the same criticisms you throw at GZA could be said of CL Smooth. When it comes to flow and delivery you could say they both have similar styles which can get lost in the mix without the proper production to pull it out.

I prefer GZA just because personally I feel his lyricism is at levels CL Smooth could never comprehend.

Mac Dre had a better flow/delivery/style and funny witty lines than CL Smooth.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Pete Rock made the duo. Without his production they would have been forgotten in the 1990s and might have never dropped a second album.

Anyone can see that except the blind fan boy.

And no one is really trying to diss your boy. All Myers was asking is how you could not see or admit that the same criticisms you throw at GZA could be said of CL Smooth. When it comes to flow and delivery you could say they both have similar styles which can get lost in the mix without the proper production to pull it out.

I prefer GZA just because personally I feel his lyricism is at levels CL Smooth could never comprehend.

Mac Dre had a better flow/delivery/style and funny witty lines than CL Smooth.

No SRP. Actually a "duo" is made up of two people. Pete Rock and CL Smooth had a natural bond that few duos have ever reached. And that is why those two albums (and arguably their debut EP) are widely considered to be classics. If CL's flow and lyrics sucked or were merely average, there is no way so many would consider them classic in the boom of the golden age. CL Smooth is arguably the first rapper you think of when you think of Pete Rock's finest work. I'm not even sure if that's arguable. People may play favorites, but those albums were airtight.

Anyone can see that except for a mindless hater.

I know nobody is dissing "my boy" (lol), but your argument is not very solid IMO. Two people make a up a classic duo. I just responded to Terry with my thoughts. There is nothing sub-par about the production on American Me IMO. I could see giving it 4.5 stars, but no less, really.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Mac Dre had a better flow/delivery/style and funny witty lines than CL Smooth.

You're telling me that's not some blind fanboy shit? lol

I'll give you funny/witty lines. But that's all I'm seeing. His flow/delivery is simply incomparable.

The way I see it, those albums were classics because of Pete's timless production....CL played his guru role and didnt fuck it up with his lyrics.

Nah man, it's the opinion of someone with years of listening to rap - not fan boy shit.

I will give you an example.

Gangstarr:

Group in my personal top 10!

One of the best duos of all time!

guess what?

Primo made the duo - I can admit that - I can see that - subtract Primo from Guru's career - pair him with the best production out there even, and his inclusion in a top 100 is arguable.

Add Primo into the mix and they are a consensus top 50.

Now how am I fan boy for seeing and admitting that?

and how are you not a fan boy for not being able to see the same in CL Smooth?

Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:

Kopasetick wrote:

Shon wrote:

Ghost wouldn't make it, Norf??

Not in my book, no. And he's my favorite member of the Wu. Sure, his musical output is top notch, but folks make these discussions about other things for some reasons. So, when you factor in the "other things" (*cough* outside bullshit that doesn't matter whatsoever when speaking on the MUSIC *cough*), he doesn't make it, unfortunately...

Now I'm confused. I thought we were supposed to give our personal take on these discussions/polls. Isn't that the point? Is that considered "outside bullshit"?

I was facetiously speaking about things like "impact" and "sales" and all that other B.S. that folks bring into the equation.

Of course Ghost gets in. I still voted neither on GZA, though. I recognize his dopeness, but he's never been a favorite of mine due to an astounding lack of charisma...

how the hell does this topic have 69 replies and only 12 total votes...vote people!

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Nah man, it's the opinion of someone with years of listening to rap - not fan boy shit.

I will give you an example.

Gangstarr:

Group in my personal top 10!

One of the best duos of all time!

guess what?

Primo made the duo - I can admit that - I can see that - subtract Primo from Guru's career - pair him with the best production out there even, and his inclusion in a top 100 is arguable.

Add Primo into the mix and they are a consensus top 50.

Now how am I fan boy for seeing and admitting that?

and how are you not a fan boy for not being able to see the same in CL Smooth?

SRP, I don't care how long you've been listening to rap. I've been listening to music longer. Either way, it's a stupid argument. Moving on...

I feel relatively the same about Guru. I think CL is much better, but I think Guru was better than most make him out to be. Again, Primo & Guru were a impeccable duo, and the first rapper I think of when I hear DJ Premier's name, is Guru. In fact, when I hear DJ Premier, I automatically think of Gang Starr because I feel that is his finest and biggest contribution to hip-hop.

As solo artists, I feel CL is better than Guru.

lol, thats more like it norm. youre the last poster i have faith in...like the last rapper someone has faith in, and i thought you just did the forum equivalent of getting on a track with lil wayne.

when i think of premo i think of jeru

Kopasetick wrote:

Minnesota Hip-Hop Fiend wrote:

Kopasetick wrote:

Shon wrote:

Ghost wouldn't make it, Norf??

Not in my book, no. And he's my favorite member of the Wu. Sure, his musical output is top notch, but folks make these discussions about other things for some reasons. So, when you factor in the "other things" (*cough* outside bullshit that doesn't matter whatsoever when speaking on the MUSIC *cough*), he doesn't make it, unfortunately...

Now I'm confused. I thought we were supposed to give our personal take on these discussions/polls. Isn't that the point? Is that considered "outside bullshit"?

I was facetiously speaking about things like "impact" and "sales" and all that other B.S. that folks bring into the equation.

Of course Ghost gets in. I still voted neither on GZA, though. I recognize his dopeness, but he's never been a favorite of mine due to an astounding lack of charisma...

Well put. And thanks for clearing that up.

What do you think of CL Smooth's "American Me"?

Once again you miss the point Pounds.

I was not saying my opinion was any more valuable because of the number of years of listening. I was saying my opinions are as objective as they can be and are based on years of listening and not blind fanaticism.

You are getting to Kool John levels of stubbornness with your CL Smooth nob slobbing.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Once again you miss the point Pounds.

I was not saying my opinion was any more valuable because of the number of years of listening. I was saying my opinions are as objective as they can be and are based on years of listening and not blind fanaticism.

You are getting to Kool John levels of stubbornness with your CL Smooth nob slobbing.

LOL @ "being objective" & your "more valuable" opinion. You are no more objective than me, SRP. You do plenty of nob slobbing. Shon showed everyone the pictures. lol

Not sure what pictures you're talking about man, but I think when it comes to CL Smooth I am being plenty more objective than you'll ever be.

And if you could read you'd see I said nothing about my opinion being more valuable.

RoyceJustShootsNines wrote:

Not sure what pictures you're talking about man, but I think when it comes to CL Smooth I am being plenty more objective than you'll ever be.

And if you could read you'd see I said nothing about my opinion being more valuable.

It's insinuated (if not clearly stated) in every post regardless of how you worded it right above. Of course you are objective about a rapper you think is average. But you overrate plenty that are simply average as well. Neither one of us would back down from our favorites. So why harp on about it? Your argument is old and pointless.

You are reading too much into it... and please - feel free to cite the countless examples where I overrated average rappers...

i would say top 50 for GZA. I've liked his style and seen it progress since Words From The Genius and i have always liked his content.

GZA top 50 with his eye's closed. Lyrically? Every Wu Tang Member outside of U-God and Masta Killah is strong enough to be In the top 50 by a wide margin.

MarcoPolo wrote:

GZA top 50 with his eye's closed. Lyrically? Every Wu Tang Member outside of U-God and Masta Killah is strong enough to be In the top 50 by a wide margin.

No sir...come off that. Maybe to you personally but not overall.

this thread has nothing to do with CL Smooth stop talking about it lol

KRob86 wrote:

MarcoPolo wrote:

GZA top 50 with his eye's closed. Lyrically? Every Wu Tang Member outside of U-God and Masta Killah is strong enough to be In the top 50 by a wide margin.

No sir...come off that. Maybe to you personally but not overall.

Nah Kev, how are you going to say that Willie d is in your top 100, and then tell someone to come off it. Virtually every Wu member would bury Willie lyrically.

GZA's in my top 100 for sure. He's the second best from the Wu in my opinion, and Liquid Swords is one of my favorite albums of all time.

GZA is Top 50 easily. IMO he's the best line for line lyricist in Wu-Tang, and Liquid Swords is one of the 20 best rap albums of all time.

Steve wrote:

Really? I view Legend of the Liquid Swords as his only weak spot. I still give that around 3.5/5 or so. Liquid Swords is obviously classic, and Beneath the Surface, Grandmasters, Pro Tools are all 4+ stars.

I think Legend Of The Liquid Swords is better than Pro Tools and Beneath the Surface. Nevertheless GZA's the man!

KRob86 wrote:

Just to expose the semi bias of this forum I feel gza is no way in hell top 50 if Snoop, Ice T, Busta Rhymes, Slick Rick, Heavy D, and Lyte are not. No one see's how crazy this looks?

Not for nothing Kev, but with the exception of Busta I voted ALL of those people Top 50. Busta was Top 100 for me because his discog has been inconsistent. GZA is Top 50 for me because he's spit some of the hottest lines in Wu-Tang history.

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

MarcoPolo wrote:

GZA top 50 with his eye's closed. Lyrically? Every Wu Tang Member outside of U-God and Masta Killah is strong enough to be In the top 50 by a wide margin.

No sir...come off that. Maybe to you personally but not overall.

Nah Kev, how are you going to say that Willie d is in your top 100, and then tell someone to come off it. Virtually every Wu member would bury Willie lyrically.

That is why I told him "personally" because to me personally Willie D is top 50 but I know he does not belong on a top 100 solo wise objectively. And I do not seriously think every Wu member would bury Will. Most of time no one knows what the fuck they be saying sometimes but you can hear Willie D loud and clear. What has U God said that you can apply to your like Terry? What about Masta Killa? Help me out...

I think Masta Killa is better than Willie D. The only Wu MC's I'd rank Willie over are U-God and Cappadonna.

I wouldn't say betta because it depends on what a person is looking for in a rapper. For the record I like Masta Killa and in some aspects I agree he may be more lyrical than Willie D but best believe in some aspects Will is betta.

KRob86 wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

KRob86 wrote:

MarcoPolo wrote:

GZA top 50 with his eye's closed. Lyrically? Every Wu Tang Member outside of U-God and Masta Killah is strong enough to be In the top 50 by a wide margin.

No sir...come off that. Maybe to you personally but not overall.

Nah Kev, how are you going to say that Willie d is in your top 100, and then tell someone to come off it. Virtually every Wu member would bury Willie lyrically.

That is why I told him "personally" because to me personally Willie D is top 50 but I know he does not belong on a top 100 solo wise objectively. And I do not seriously think every Wu member would bury Will. Most of time no one knows what the fuck they be saying sometimes but you can hear Willie D loud and clear. What has U God said that you can apply to your like Terry? What about Masta Killa? Help me out...

It just came across like you were stating your opinion as fact, but it's all good. I know it's all a personal preference, and that's why you rank Willie D so highly. I listened to 4 of his albums this weekend, and they just didn't do anything special for me. U-God is the only one who I don't think is better than Willie D. Masta Killa is dope to me, and i think he is often times slept on. He was able to do what most of the other members of the Clan have not. He released an album without RZA's helping hand, and it was damn near classic, and that speaks volumes.

Masta Killa is one of the top ten underrated rappers ever, IMO. No Said Date and Made In Brooklyn are both at least 4.5 stars to me

Yeah No Said Date is near classic if he would have left off the love songs...And Made In Brooklyn was good also. Aslong as he keeps Wu guest on his albums I think he will be fine.

And Terry Willie D is just not for you and maybe stop trying to hear the "greatness" will make his albums more enjoyable.

Yeah, you might be thinking Willie D is some God emcee when we appreciate his realness and style...

KRob86 wrote:

And Terry Willie D is just not for you and maybe stop trying to hear the "greatness" will make his albums more enjoyable.

I'm not trying to hear greatness. I was plenty familiar with Wille D. He never really stood out on any GB albumsalthough he's had his moments), and his solos aren't great either.

I never said his solo's were great did I Terry? Matter of fact he only has one personal classic for me but I have heard two of his other albums get the classic nod.

KRob86 wrote:

I never said his solo's were great did I Terry? Matter of fact he only has one personal classic for me but I have heard two of his other albums get the classic nod.

I don't think i ever said you thought his albums were great, but feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

why isn't GZA's contributions to Wu tang a part of the discussion.

he was certainly a member and a member of a group which dropped 2 classic (i guess you can hate on wuforever) but that this added to his liquid swords and strong discography, plus his beastly mic skills...HOW IS HE NOT IN ANYONE's TOP 50???????