Gang Starr reunited???

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

And you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is Royce has not had an entire album produced by Premier. Also, any album produced entirely by Premier is a threat to be a classic everytime out.

BS...he's not fucking God.

The fact is that Premier has produced classics for others. Guru has not released a classic without Premier. I know you consider Vol. 3 a classic, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not fucking with The Sun Rises In The East or Livin Proof for that matter. Another point people seem to be over looking is that Royce has a history and chemistry with Premier. Why could Royce not release a classic with nothing but Premier beats? Guru was always average to me, and it's not like he's turning back the clock any time soon. Royce is at the top of his game.

Volume 3 was not very good at all. I like Vols. 1, 2 and 4....1 being the (near) classic. IMO the Jeru and Group Home albums are not better than Gang Starr's best work. Not even sure where you're coming from with the comparison of solo Guru work though. Compare apples to apples. My point was, Premo doesn't turn out classics with just any emcee. He turned out the best with Guru.

Royce? I just don't care for him very much (sorry Shaun). He's a dope rapper, but nothing real special IMO. I should hear more of his work before saying that, but it is what it is. I haven't been tempted to hear more really. I dig Guru's style and jazzy vibes way more anyway. Just like I like Q-Tip, and you think he's average as well. Just like you dig a lot of hardcore emcees I find boring...

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

Jason wrote:

Ownerz is a 3.5 to me.

Good for you...that's way to fucking low though. lol

LOL! I agree. I think The Ownerz is tremendously underrated. It's at least 4 stars to me. Guru didn't really hurt the album, but Premier's beats were the star of the show more than any other Gangstarr album

You don't think that was some of Guru's finest work? Listen to him rapping on Daily Operation, then listen to him rapping on The Ownerz. The difference is plain as day. Guru got sharper.

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

And you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is Royce has not had an entire album produced by Premier. Also, any album produced entirely by Premier is a threat to be a classic everytime out.

BS...he's not fucking God.

The fact is that Premier has produced classics for others. Guru has not released a classic without Premier. I know you consider Vol. 3 a classic, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not fucking with The Sun Rises In The East or Livin Proof for that matter. Another point people seem to be over looking is that Royce has a history and chemistry with Premier. Why could Royce not release a classic with nothing but Premier beats? Guru was always average to me, and it's not like he's turning back the clock any time soon. Royce is at the top of his game.

Volume 3 was not very good at all. I like Vols. 1, 2 and 4....1 being the (near) classic. IMO the Jeru and Group Home albums are not better than Gang Starr's best work. Not even sure where you're coming from with the comparison of solo Guru work though. Compare apples to apples. My point was, Premo doesn't turn out classics with just any emcee. He turned out the best with Guru.

Royce? I just don't care for him very much (sorry Shaun). He's a dope rapper, but nothing real special IMO. I should hear more of his work before saying that, but it is what it is. I haven't been tempted to hear more really. I dig Guru's style and jazzy vibes way more anyway. Just like I like Q-Tip, and you think he's average as well. Just like you dig a lot of hardcore emcees I find boring...

oops, i misquoted on Vol. 3. I guess i just confused it with another. My apologies for that. I never said the Group Home and Jeru albums were better(although i think The Sun Rises In The East is probably better). I was simply trying to state that, while they have undeniable chemistry, Premier is more responsible for their success, and i used the classic albums from Group home and Jeru to emphasize my point. If premier can work magic with Guru, why can't he work magic with Royce who is easily better at this point in their careers? Also, KJ acts like Royce being compared to Guru is laughable cause Guru has multiple classics under his belt, but to be honest those releases were not on an even playing field due to Premier's presence on those Gangstarr albums. The better comparison would be Guru's Jazzmatazz albums to Royce's solo albums.

Also, i don't think i ever said Q-Tip was average. I've always said he is overrated, but i do think he's above average.

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

And you can say what you want, but the fact of the matter is Royce has not had an entire album produced by Premier. Also, any album produced entirely by Premier is a threat to be a classic everytime out.

BS...he's not fucking God.

The fact is that Premier has produced classics for others. Guru has not released a classic without Premier. I know you consider Vol. 3 a classic, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not fucking with The Sun Rises In The East or Livin Proof for that matter. Another point people seem to be over looking is that Royce has a history and chemistry with Premier. Why could Royce not release a classic with nothing but Premier beats? Guru was always average to me, and it's not like he's turning back the clock any time soon. Royce is at the top of his game.

Volume 3 was not very good at all. I like Vols. 1, 2 and 4....1 being the (near) classic. IMO the Jeru and Group Home albums are not better than Gang Starr's best work. Not even sure where you're coming from with the comparison of solo Guru work though. Compare apples to apples. My point was, Premo doesn't turn out classics with just any emcee. He turned out the best with Guru.

Royce? I just don't care for him very much (sorry Shaun). He's a dope rapper, but nothing real special IMO. I should hear more of his work before saying that, but it is what it is. I haven't been tempted to hear more really. I dig Guru's style and jazzy vibes way more anyway. Just like I like Q-Tip, and you think he's average as well. Just like you dig a lot of hardcore emcees I find boring...

oops, i misquoted on Vol. 3. I guess i just confused it with another. My apologies for that. I never said the Group Home and Jeru albums were better(although i think The Sun Rises In The East is probably better). I was simply trying to state that, while they have undeniable chemistry, Premier is more responsible for their success, and i used the classic albums from Group home and Jeru to emphasize my point. If premier can work magic with Guru, why can't he work magic with Royce who is easily better at this point in their careers? Also, KJ acts like Royce being compared to Guru is laughable cause Guru has multiple classics under his belt, but to be honest those releases were not on an even playing field due to Premier's presence on those Gangstarr albums. The better comparison would be Guru's Jazzmatazz albums to Royce's solo albums.

Also, i don't think i ever said Q-Tip was average. I've always said he is overrated, but i do think he's above average.

I think Guru is better because he is more unique, and pioneered a sound and style. Maybe you don't dig it, but that jazzy monotone flow is one of a kind. Guru stands out where Royce blends in. Jeru stands out more than Royce. The Group Home is not quite a classic to me....the beats are stellar...but the rapping holds it back for me.

And I disagree entirely on your point about KJ's argument comparing Gang Starr Guru to Royce and saying the Jazzmatazz is a better comparison. Rappers only have one prime. You have to compare primes. Guru slaughtered the game in his prime. Guru dropped the best records of his career before the Jazzmatazz was a thought.

no we are saying its not fair to compare discs full of some of the best beats in hip hop history to royces albums because he has not had chances to work with that caliber of beat. which is why hes saying jazzmatazz is a better match. also guru solo albums (not jazzmatazz) are trash.

The Genius wrote:

no we are saying its not fair to compare discs full of some of the best beats in hip hop history to royces albums because he has not had chances to work with that caliber of beat. which is why hes saying jazzmatazz is a better match. also guru solo albums (not jazzmatazz) are trash.

Terry said...

"Another point people seem to be over looking is that Royce has a history and chemistry with Premier."

I didn't know that really. But yeah, "Baldhead Slick & Da Click" and "Version 7.0: The Street Scriptures" are no good. "Jazzmatazz, Vol. 3: Streetsoul" isn't far behind. I haven't heard his new one. But those are way past his prime. Royce is arguably living his prime...or is not far out of it.

But KJ is saying Royce doesnt have the classics like Guru. So royce is in his prime now. Give him 4 discs full of quality premo beats and im sure they would come out classic. We are saying the reason guru is dope is because of beat selection and if you give royce that im sure he would be on the same level. I like guru and jazzmatazz you know that alan.

It's kind of a moot point to talk about Royce being better if he had Guru's beat selection, because I don't think you can separate how good a rapper is from how good their musical sense is. It's not like it's some randomized lottery, and Royce is just left with whatever beats float his way. Royce doesn't have better production on his albums because he hasn't picked better production. Royce has the flow and delivery of a great rapper, but that's only part of the package, he hasn't shown any musical ambition (and his lyrics are trite too, but that's sort of another topic).

And it's not all down to Guru just being lucky enough to have Primo. First of all, I'm fairly sure he was involved with the production process of the Gang Starr albums, and so deserves some credit for that. Beyond that, while the Jazzmatazz albums may not be everybody's flavor, that was an ambitious project for Guru to take on, when he could have just relied on Primo and the Gang Starr name. Royce hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking that kind of step, in fact I'd say he's shown no sign of innovation, creativity, or originality in making his music.

The Genius wrote:

But KJ is saying Royce doesnt have the classics like Guru. So royce is in his prime now. Give him 4 discs full of quality premo beats and im sure they would come out classic. We are saying the reason guru is dope is because of beat selection and if you give royce that im sure he would be on the same level. I like guru and jazzmatazz you know that alan.

How can you be so sure? Give Royce 4 full albums of Premo beats and they would automatically become classic? I'm just not sure I can even entertain that notion...

I know what you're saying. I just don't really agree or foresee those results...especially in 2009...it's all speculation...

Jason wrote:

It's kind of a moot point to talk about Royce being better if he had Guru's beat selection, because I don't think you can separate how good a rapper is from how good their musical sense is. It's not like it's some randomized lottery, and Royce is just left with whatever beats float his way. Royce doesn't have better production on his albums because he hasn't picked better production. Royce has the flow and delivery of a great rapper, but that's only part of the package, he hasn't shown any musical ambition (and his lyrics are trite too, but that's sort of another topic).

And it's not all down to Guru just being lucky enough to have Primo. First of all, I'm fairly sure he was involved with the production process of the Gang Starr albums, and so deserves some credit for that. Beyond that, while the Jazzmatazz albums may not be everybody's flavor, that was an ambitious project for Guru to take on, when he could have just relied on Primo and the Gang Starr name. Royce hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking that kind of step, in fact I'd say he's shown no sign of innovation, creativity, or originality in making his music.

I agree Jason. I really do think Guru had a lot to do with the direction and styles of the Gang Starr albums...it shows from his work on the Jazzmatazz series'. I mean, the duo started out together. I'm sure DJ Premier was heavily influenced by Guru's direction as well.

Jason wrote:

Guru has dropped a series of increasingly crappy albums, I don't see how it's a stretch to call him washed up, and when is the last time Primo had more than a few beats on a great album? Almost a decade? When he has done more than that, the results have been spotty at best.

Isn't Gift Of Gab in your top 5 of all-time??

Jason I'm convinced man...you don't know hip-hop music...now folk music maybe more your slow speed but this music is just beyond your means to grasp man...I'm serious too

you have written the most ridiculous comments on this board since I've seen you and your wack avatared self...."Guru is a crackhead"??????

"Preemo can't produce anymore full lengths"????

Yo, man YOUR DUMB!

Not me royce has a better voice and better lyrics. when he had track with premier in the past they were classic. get him lots of the same quality beat and it would equal more classic shit. if guru never got the chance to work with premier i think he would be a no body and i dont think he would have made it far in the world of rap. he would be a small time dude in the underground imo if he never got matched up with premier

No, Gift of Gab is not in my top 5, not that that matters. And I noticed that no one came in here to say how great that Blaq Poet album is, or that Big Shug album Premo produced the bulk of a few years ago. So as much as you guys want to say it's crazy to think Premo can't produce great full length's like he used to, or that he's past his prime, I think the evidence is out there. Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you? Is the Blaqprint anywhere near the level of Livin' Proof?

And I'm pretty sure you've never heard a Silver Jews album to even judge it. I don't know why you have a problem with me listening to them. It really makes no sense. You claim to love lyrics, so you might like them, since Dave Berman is a great lyricist.

Oh yeah the beats on Blaq Poet and Big Shugs album where not very good at all. I was not impressed in any way. Premier is slipping

Jason wrote:

Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you?

Please man...he was in his prime then and every rapper wanted Premier. He had his pick of the highly talented litter. He was at the top of his game. Now he's just working. I can't say or not if he's "slipping", but his 2003 effort on the Gang Starr album is convincing enough that he still has it.

2003 damn near 6 years ago. a lot changes in 6 years

1993-1999 look how many dope rappers/groups and producers went downhill. Being dope in 2003 is not enough to prove you can be dope in 2009

Jason wrote:

The Owenerz was the weakest Gang Starr album to me, with the exception of their debut. The crackhead part was a joke, because of his latest auto-tune effort, and his hyperbole about Solar.

The Ownerz was dope as fuck. I give it 4.5 stars. No More Mr. Nice Guy is definitely their weakest, but even that is a 4 star album.

Alan wrote:

Jason wrote:

Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you?

Please man...he was in his prime then and every rapper wanted Premier. He had his pick of the highly talented litter. He was at the top of his game. Now he's just working. I can't say or not if he's "slipping", but his 2003 effort on the Gang Starr album is convincing enough that he still has it.

Co-Sign, Primo hasn't lost a step at all. He still makes bomb ass beats to this day. The only problem is that the quality of MC's out today as compared to back then is on the decline, and most will agree that mediorce lyrics can overshadow excellent production at times. Jermaine Dupri is a prime example of that.

Guru is a pioneering emcee. Manafest was my tune back in the day! "Take heed to the words that I manifest" - that was a Big Daddy Kane sample used for the chorus. And the beat was phenominal.

Manifest was the song that got me hooked on Gang Starr.

Guru, Special Ed, and them cats brought new styles to the game.

I think it works boths ways of these arguments/debates. Guru was just as important to Gangstarr as Premier was because no one knew who the hell Premo was until they dropped and no one paid attention to his dope beats until they heard the monotone deep voice rapper that went hand and hand with them.

On the other hand of the debate I agree that Guru mos def was made to look even betta with the Primo beats and most great albums usually co-op with the production. So Royce who is also a monotone rapper I am sure would also benefit from a album full of Premo beats. And Premo beats of lately have not been that stellar, he's no Dr Dre now.

KJ Styles wrote:

Alan wrote:

Jason wrote:

Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you?

Please man...he was in his prime then and every rapper wanted Premier. He had his pick of the highly talented litter. He was at the top of his game. Now he's just working. I can't say or not if he's "slipping", but his 2003 effort on the Gang Starr album is convincing enough that he still has it.

Co-Sign, Primo hasn't lost a step at all. He still makes bomb ass beats to this day. The only problem is that the quality of MC's out today as compared to back then is on the decline, and most will agree that mediorce lyrics can overshadow excellent production at times. Jermaine Dupri is a prime example of that.

You're right, where are you gonna find emcees of the same high quality as Lil Dap and Melachi these days?

Hahahahahaha.

Jason wrote:

KJ Styles wrote:

Alan wrote:

Jason wrote:

Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you?

Please man...he was in his prime then and every rapper wanted Premier. He had his pick of the highly talented litter. He was at the top of his game. Now he's just working. I can't say or not if he's "slipping", but his 2003 effort on the Gang Starr album is convincing enough that he still has it.

Co-Sign, Primo hasn't lost a step at all. He still makes bomb ass beats to this day. The only problem is that the quality of MC's out today as compared to back then is on the decline, and most will agree that mediorce lyrics can overshadow excellent production at times. Jermaine Dupri is a prime example of that.

You're right, where are you gonna find emcees of the same high quality as Lil Dap and Melachi these days?

I'm not a Group Home fan, but I'd take Guru and especially Jeru over the majority of the post 2000 MC's

There are post-2000 emcees better than both, in my opinion, but how good Premo has been recently doesn't rest on that. I don't buy the excuse that he hasn't had the quality of emcees. In the 90s he made all sorts of average emcees sound much better than they should. Even if the low quality of the emcees in Group Home kept the album from being great overall in your opinion, it's clear the production is great regardless. He still can make average emcees sound better than they are, but not nearly as consistently, which is why I'm not convinced he can bring an album full of great production. He certainly hasn't shown that he can when he's tried to produce more than a few songs on an album in the last few years.

Jason wrote:

There are post-2000 emcees better than both, in my opinion, but how good Premo has been recently doesn't rest on that. I don't buy the excuse that he hasn't had the quality of emcees. In the 90s he made all sorts of average emcees sound much better than they should. Even if the low quality of the emcees in Group Home kept the album from being great overall in your opinion, it's clear the production is great regardless. He still can make average emcees sound better than they are, but not nearly as consistently, which is why I'm not convinced he can bring an album full of great production. He certainly hasn't shown that he can when he's tried to produce more than a few songs on an album in the last few years.

Seriously Jason, what have Primo done that was wack???

You're right, he does make MC's sound better than they are. Group Home's album was dope because of Primo, the reason why it falls short of classic to me is because of Dap and Malachi's lyrics.

He still has that ability though. NYG'z aren't the greatest MC's and he made them sound dope. He hasn't been the exec producer of an album in quite some time though, so how can you honestly say that he's lost a step? I personally consider him the best producer of all time, because he knows how to develop chemistry with rappers and make beats made particularly for their style. That's what made GangStarr so successful because as others have mentioned, he made beats perfectly suited for Guru.

I'd love for those two to work together again. They never made an album under 4 stars and I see no reason why that streak wouldn't continue.

Jason wrote:

No, Gift of Gab is not in my top 5, not that that matters. And I noticed that no one came in here to say how great that Blaq Poet album is, or that Big Shug album Premo produced the bulk of a few years ago. So as much as you guys want to say it's crazy to think Premo can't produce great full length's like he used to, or that he's past his prime, I think the evidence is out there. Is Primo post-2000 nearly as good as Primo 1990s to any of you? Is the Blaqprint anywhere near the level of Livin' Proof?

And I'm pretty sure you've never heard a Silver Jews album to even judge it. I don't know why you have a problem with me listening to them. It really makes no sense. You claim to love lyrics, so you might like them, since Dave Berman is a great lyricist.

umm have you heard the NYG'z album from 2007, that is a fucking GREAT album

also, why the hell are people saying Royce is in his prime, IMO he has fallen off drastically from wherehe was in his Bad Meets Evil days...his voice and subject matter arent nearly as appealing as they used to be anymore

that said, he could still probably make a classic, or near classic with all Primo production, but we'll never know

KJ Styles wrote:

Jason wrote:

There are post-2000 emcees better than both, in my opinion, but how good Premo has been recently doesn't rest on that. I don't buy the excuse that he hasn't had the quality of emcees. In the 90s he made all sorts of average emcees sound much better than they should. Even if the low quality of the emcees in Group Home kept the album from being great overall in your opinion, it's clear the production is great regardless. He still can make average emcees sound better than they are, but not nearly as consistently, which is why I'm not convinced he can bring an album full of great production. He certainly hasn't shown that he can when he's tried to produce more than a few songs on an album in the last few years.

Seriously Jason, what have Primo done that was wack???

You're right, he does make MC's sound better than they are. Group Home's album was dope because of Primo, the reason why it falls short of classic to me is because of Dap and Malachi's lyrics.

He still has that ability though. NYG'z aren't the greatest MC's and he made them sound dope. He hasn't been the exec producer of an album in quite some time though, so how can you honestly say that he's lost a step? I personally consider him the best producer of all time, because he knows how to develop chemistry with rappers and make beats made particularly for their style. That's what made GangStarr so successful because as others have mentioned, he made beats perfectly suited for Guru.

I'd love for those two to work together again. They never made an album under 4 stars and I see no reason why that streak wouldn't continue.

I never said he was wack now. I didn't think that NYG'z album was great, it was good. He executive produced the Blaqprint, that was just this year, and that was thoroughly average album.

The Primo Joint With Mega "Make It Clear" is good example of what he is still capable of.

Royce is a monotone rapper. Kev, have you heard "Shake This"? How about ANY of DIC? It's hard to take comments like that seriously when you clearly haven't heard enough of the dudes catalogue to make judgements like that.

Yeah, I noticed that, too, lol, but I was too lazy to say that.

Shaun wrote:

Yeah, I noticed that, too, lol, but I was too lazy to say that.

you weren't too lazy. you were afraid no one would co-sign you.

...No, too lazy. I didn't even put up the Top 100 albums thing yesterday, stupid. And I was pretty sure someone would agree.... It's not that hard to tell

Shaun wrote:

...No, too lazy. I didn't even put up the Top 100 albums thing yesterday, stupid. And I was pretty sure someone would agree.... It's not that hard to tell

I don't believe you. you need more people.

"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Royce is a monotone rapper. Kev, have you heard "Shake This"? How about ANY of DIC? It's hard to take comments like that seriously when you clearly haven't heard enough of the dudes catalogue to make judgements like that. "

There's one... is that enough?

Shaun wrote:

"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Royce is a monotone rapper. Kev, have you heard "Shake This"? How about ANY of DIC? It's hard to take comments like that seriously when you clearly haven't heard enough of the dudes catalogue to make judgements like that. "

There's one... is that enough?

That depends on if we actually consider N3R0 a real person.

T. Myers wrote:

That depends on if we actually consider N3R0 a real person.

LMFAO!!!

N3R0 wrote:

Royce is a monotone rapper. Kev, have you heard "Shake This"? How about ANY of DIC? It's hard to take comments like that seriously when you clearly haven't heard enough of the dudes catalogue to make judgements like that.

Ah yes.... he is the dude that has no personality on the mic imo. And I was looking forward to Royce early in his career when I 1st heard Boom on MTV. I heard his first 2-3 albums before I noticed he had nothing to offer me solo wise.

Alan wrote:

T. Myers wrote:

Alan wrote:

Jason wrote:

Ownerz is a 3.5 to me.

Good for you...that's way to fucking low though. lol

LOL! I agree. I think The Ownerz is tremendously underrated. It's at least 4 stars to me. Guru didn't really hurt the album, but Premier's beats were the star of the show more than any other Gangstarr album

You don't think that was some of Guru's finest work? Listen to him rapping on Daily Operation, then listen to him rapping on The Ownerz. The difference is plain as day. Guru got sharper.

Daily Operation was a MUCH better album than The Ownerz, although I enjoy both.

I thought Guru's best lyrical work however, was on Moment Of Truth.